The Kent History Forum

Aviation History => Miscellaneous Aviation History => Topic started by: castle261 on October 23, 2020, 11:17:14 AM

Title: V I - Timer.
Post by: castle261 on October 23, 2020, 11:17:14 AM
An interesting piece emerged yesterday. - Thursday Oct 22nd - 2020
A programme on Sky television had `BRUCE` on Combat Dealers, he found a V 1 timer -
while looking for items - for a fellow dealer in a Museum in Calais.
I always had the impression that the rocket motor cut out - when the fuel ran out -
causing the V 1 - to dive & crash - It could be that the timer was for a delayed action fuse
He bought it for £50 - Programme may be the same on Sky 144 today - at 3.00pm
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: grandarog on October 23, 2020, 01:01:19 PM
As far as I am aware the V 1 Doodlebug was designed to dive down above the target site by means of a system of mechanics that severed controls and jammed the rudder in straight ahead position. This was achieved by a small propellor driving a  mechanism t which counted down ,thus arming the warhead after a certain distance from launch and when it had counted down to Zero initiated the Dive.
The clock was the 3rd backup for detonation if the impact fuse or the delay fuse  to allow penetration failed.
I didn't see the programme so don't know what the timer looked like. When I was a kid one of our neighbour,s had a  clock he said came from a V1 .It was about 5 or 6 inch,s diameter and had a brass face and works.
  Hope this helps until someone with more knowledge can elaborate.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 23, 2020, 02:41:29 PM
dive was due to timer cutting the engine so could be varied to take into account head wind etc or change the range easily.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: grandarog on October 23, 2020, 06:07:22 PM
Beg to differ Pete .
I have checked details since posting .
Dive was instigated by a Wind vane driven odometer that counted down to zero which then cut the services.
The Datum Number entered at the launch determined the range.It also armed the Warhead after a certain distance to the target.
The timing Mechanism was a backup fusing if the Impactfuses failed.


The Encyclopedia Brittanica article is Below.
The first practical cruise missile was the German V-1 of World War II, which was powered by a pulse jet that used a cycling flutter valve to regulate the air and fuel mixture. Because the pulse jet required airflow for ignition, it could not operate below 150 miles per hour. Therefore, a ground catapult boosted the V-1 to 200 miles per hour, at which time the pulse-jet engine was ignited. Once ignited, it could attain speeds of 400 miles per hour and ranges exceeding 150 miles. Course control was accomplished by a combined air-driven gyroscope and magnetic compass (https://www.britannica.com/technology/magnetic-compass), and altitude was controlled by a simple barometric altimeter; as a consequence, the V-1 was subject to heading, or azimuth, errors resulting from gyro drift, and it had to be operated at fairly high altitudes (usually above 2,000 feet) to compensate for altitude errors caused by differences in atmospheric pressure (https://www.britannica.com/science/atmospheric-pressure) along the route of flight.The missile was armed in flight by a small propeller that, after a specified number of turns, activated the warhead at a safe distance from the launch. As the V-1 approached its target, the control vanes were inactivated and a rear-mounted spoiler, or drag device, deployed, pitching the missile nose-down toward the target. This usually interrupted the fuel supply, causing the engine to quit, and the weapon detonated upon impactBecause of the rather crude method of calculating the impact point by the number of revolutions of a small propeller, the Germans could not use the V-1 as a precision weapon, nor could they determine the actual impact point in order to make course corrections for subsequent flights. In fact, the British publicized inaccurate information on impact points, causing the Germans to adjust their preflight calculations erroneously. As a result, V-1s often fell well short of their intended targets.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: mmitch on October 24, 2020, 10:55:10 AM
Some time ago I read about bomb disposal in London in WW2. A V1 crash landed in some woods (near Bromley?) without exploding. It took the best part of a week to defuse it. There were several fuses some were made safe using sulphuric acid. I believe it was the first V1 recovered intact?
mmitch.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 24, 2020, 12:09:30 PM
Never heard of sulphuric acid being used in BD, certainly no mention of it when I did my A1  trade at Lodge Hill and we were trained on German fuzes as the M25 & Docklands were keeping the regiment well busy
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Dave Smith on October 24, 2020, 06:04:12 PM
I definitely heard that "acid" was used in some uxb's to dissolve the, presumably, plastic pre- igniter. But I didn't think that was used on V1's. From my memory, I'm sure that Grandarog's description is correct and the enormous area covered by their detonations really confirms that. BUT not completely as, & I speak from experience, sometimes the engine cut out but the V1 continued an onward glide. Specifically, on one occasion I was fishing with a friend in one of the Hoo area chalk pits & a V1 motored up to directly above & -Silence-  just like that! (As they all were that I heard, stopping in mid sentence so to speak). Expecting it to dive into the pit, we'd have had a first hand view, but no, it just carried on, heading for London on quite a shallow glide path into the distance. I'm still in touch with a couple of RAF Halton Armourer Apprentices, 1947 onward, who would have covered all aspects of bombs & fuses in their 3 year course. I will ask. 
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: castle261 on October 25, 2020, 06:56:44 AM
Thank you - for the interesting replies - the `timer` was about 5/6 inches round.
I ought to know as grandarog said - at the end `as a result - V Is often fell short - of their targets.
Because I was at the end - when one nearly got me - when I was near Tonbridge.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 25, 2020, 08:40:46 AM
I definitely heard that "acid" was used in some uxb's to dissolve the, presumably, plastic pre- igniter. But I didn't think that was used on V1's. From my memory,


Solvent such as benzene maybe to destroy the insulation on capacitors. but not suitable to use in confined spaces such as shafts. Some British delay fuzes used acid to eat through a wire holding back the  firing mechanism also some using acetone to dissolve plastic safety strip
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 25, 2020, 09:00:42 AM
http://www.zenza.se/vw/gh%20bilder/gh2a05a_b.jpg (http://www.zenza.se/vw/gh%20bilder/gh2a05a_b.jpg)


The V1 timer was a simple veeder counter. Image in above link. A small rectangular box . Same site has useful detail on the V1.


http://www.zenza.se/vw/v1_description.html
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 25, 2020, 09:21:28 AM
Great find Cosmo, fuzing system is unlike anything else they used.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 25, 2020, 09:22:38 AM
http://home.scarlet.be/~sh446368/pics-fieseler-103.html (http://home.scarlet.be/~sh446368/pics-fieseler-103.html)


Above link, slideshow pic 8 shows one in situ.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: grandarog on October 25, 2020, 12:07:02 PM
The Veeder Timer that Cosmo has posted was the Odometer counter that was driven by the small propellor on the nose to determine when the V1 would dive .
The Clockwork Timer we are concerned with operated a back up fusing system.Until now i cannot find any info on the web.I know they definitely existed just need to find a picture.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 25, 2020, 02:22:20 PM
See http://zenza.se/vw/V1%20fusing%20system.pdf  (http://zenza.se/vw/V1%20fusing%20system.pdf)for full details including wiring diagrams of the fuze systems
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 25, 2020, 03:34:52 PM
https://www.oldnautibits.com/stock_php/infopage.php?catalogue=AIT&stocknumber=6168&frompage=share (https://www.oldnautibits.com/stock_php/infopage.php?catalogue=AIT&stocknumber=6168&frompage=share)


Grandarog, this is a slightly better image of the clockwork backup fuse.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Dave Smith on October 25, 2020, 05:16:09 PM
Cosmo. A very interesting set of pictures, thanks. It seems the fuses were belt, braces & string, just in case!
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: mmitch on October 26, 2020, 10:14:38 AM
As I remember reading it, the disposal men couldn't get the fuse out so decided to find some acid. Nearby was a girl's school so they found sulphuric acid in the science cupboard! It was some time ago that I read about it. It was in a book from the library about bomb disposal in WW2 that the title now escapes me!
mmitch.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 26, 2020, 12:45:15 PM
The book may have been Danger UXB by James Owen? There's a review online mentioning acid as one of many early experimental ways of dealing with early war bomb fuses. Doesn't seem like it worked successfully then? Other early methods were pounding and shooting at the bomb fuses!
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 26, 2020, 01:41:22 PM
I did my A3 course with some RAF armourers from various ranges & bomb dumps. All the kit they had on the ranges were a mini van, 100 fathoms of rope , a rifle and 5 rounds. The bombs were mostly practice but still capable of causing injury. Theory was to tie the bomb to the van and bounce it along the beach, if that failed take potshots at it.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 26, 2020, 04:48:46 PM
When and where was this? Sounds like a scene from Dad's Army! 😂
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: grandarog on October 26, 2020, 07:00:33 PM
Cosmo ,
          You would be amazed at some of the tricks we used to get up to concerning demolition in the services.  A standard method of disposal for small ordnance was dig a hole insert said whatever in varying amounts ,empty the contents of a couple of starter cartridges or flares on top .Cover hole with a steel plate, leaving a gap at edge. Light a Portfire ignitor and chuck it in before making a walk away retreat to cover.. Fierce burn would then ignite and destroy what ever. Great fun if there were signal cartridges in the burn .Often the plate would be blown to one side and Very lights of all colours would go up. This was OK so long as the Tower had been told demo was occurring. If not Satco was not amused.
 Not heard or come acrossof the potshot method but have thrown rocks at 8 1/2 lb.practice  smoke or flame bombs to set them off on the beach. Anything bigger like Marine Markers, Depth Charges or other shells etc were manhandled onto the back of our Bantam truck and recovered to base.
 Destroying a large quantity of Hawker Hunter Starter Cartridges in Malta once . The system was to remove the cruciform charge and deposit in a 40 gallon oil drum until full. The empty case was then fired by holding the negative wire of a 12v batterry on the case and touching the cap with the live wire.The brass case was the boxed up labelled Safe ,Free from Explosives and destined to the Station Scrap yard On one occasion some of the charges in the barrel must have been corrupted as suddenly the whole lot blew out like Vesuvius giving a spectacular display .(Luckily didn't reach where we were sheltering behind a corrugated iron screen.)
Another highly illegal trick we used to pull in the Hunting Season. As the Maltese in those days would shoot at any migratory birds that game in range was to drop Chipmunk Starter Cartridges at the side of goat tracks. They were 12 Bore calibre and black so looked just like a Russian 12 Bore ShotGun Cartridge.  Just after daybreak when the daily barrage started we would laugh when in among all the bangs you heard a woosh like a rocket taking off. We knew we had caught another mug and saved a sparrow. Im'e sure Pete can tell you a few more tales. :) :)
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 27, 2020, 08:27:12 AM
When and where was this? Sounds like a scene from Dad's Army! 😂


Late '70s, East coast & Welsh coast ranges.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 27, 2020, 12:24:03 PM
The childish pyromaniac in me absolutely loves these stories. Thanks guys.


Bashing bombs etc to make them go off is stark contrast to the EOD guys trying to avoid that scenario. Came across tales of defusing enemy bombs in wartime, rather than just safe detonation, because a type of fuse was required for teaching purposes!


I've stopped looking now, but the nearest I could find to acid on a V1 fuse, was the use of acetone to dissolve (?) the explosive around the fuse pocket. This was a V1 landing in Sandhurst, Kent.


Curiously, some of those V1 that crashed intact were found to have the charges that initiated the steep dive still intact. These ones did come down after expiring their fuel and just glided down.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: MartinR on October 27, 2020, 02:27:22 PM
I tried a couple of Internet searches on "sulphuric acid bomb disposal" and "sulphuric acid V1 fuse" but nothing relevant came up.
Title: Re: V I - Timer.
Post by: pete.mason on October 27, 2020, 05:06:26 PM
A. It was in a book from the library about bomb disposal in WW2 that the title now escapes me!
mmitch.
The 2 classics were by Maj Bill Hartley -Unexploded Bomb & Highly Explosive, published in the 1950s,