The Kent History Forum
Aviation History => Miscellaneous Aviation History => Topic started by: dorissdad on October 20, 2021, 06:24:43 PM
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I wonder if any one can help me please.
I am searching for any information about a Spitfire K9870 that crashed somewhere between Milton Regis and Chetney, at about 08.00 on 11th October 1940. The Spitfire was being flown by Pilot Officer Pool of 72 Squadron based at Biggin Hill when it was attacked by 109's near Deal. PO Pool bailed out injured and the Spitfire fell to earth somewhere near Milton Regis and Chetney.
I am trying to determine where the Spitfire actually crashed.If anyone has any information, from memories or news articles or mementoes I would very much like to know.NB PO Pool survived the crash, but was killed later in the war when he was once again shot down over the channel.
Thanks in advance
Jeremy
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Sorry Jeremy wasn't There. The only reference to it crashing at Milton Regis is in Richard Smith's book about RAF Duxford. Also on the London Battle of Britain Memorial site of Airmans Story's ,which also has photos of P/o Pool.
Pilot Officer P.D.Pool of No 72 Squadron was wounded on October 11th 1940 when his Spitfire I (K9870) was shot down near Deal in Kent. Pool baled out and was injured.
P.D Pool . Died : 19 / 8 / 1942
I think you are more likely refering to this crash See link.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=199730.9 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=199730.9)
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Welcome dorissdad - welcome to the K.H.F.
Your question has brought this forum back to life - we need questions like yours.
A prompt answer by grandarog + news report + a photo of the Pilot.- cant be bad.
Thanks - for your input.
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Firstly forgive my ignorance for not welcoming you Jeremy. I didn't see it was your first post .
Welcome from me.
I am sorry my answer is not what you were hoping for.
This subject cropped up about 10 years or more ago. At the time I searched the local paper archives and some one else checked some home guard logs at the time and there was no mention of a crash in the area around that date.
Considering it was shot down over Deal and was damaged enough for P/o Poole to bale out, the disabled Spit would have to have glided or spun a long way to reach Milton.
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Welcome dorissdad.
If P.O. Pool had taken off from Biggin Hill to patrol over Deal, then he would have passed close by to Sittingbourne. It may be that the location of his combat has been miss-reported elsewhere. See this book for one account!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xWLNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT152&lpg=PT152&dq=spitfire+%22k9870%22+pool&source=bl&ots=bR05MqLW2k&sig=ACfU3U3bdReXhhHpZjOOv5zUpQvYm0Osgg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTiMiA3NzzAhUBzhoKHZw_Bi8Q6AF6BAgREAM#v=onepage&q=spitfire%20%22k9870%22%20pool&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xWLNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT152&lpg=PT152&dq=spitfire+%22k9870%22+pool&source=bl&ots=bR05MqLW2k&sig=ACfU3U3bdReXhhHpZjOOv5zUpQvYm0Osgg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTiMiA3NzzAhUBzhoKHZw_Bi8Q6AF6BAgREAM#v=onepage&q=spitfire%20%22k9870%22%20pool&f=false)
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Having read the excerpt from the book Cosmo Smallpiece has posted .
It now looks to me where the confusion has occured.
It is quite logical that P/P Pool landed near Sittingbourne, with a westerly wind from 22.000 ft ,having drifted down on his chute.
Whereas his aircraft, as it was on fire would have fallen much closer to the Deal area ,above which it was hit.
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It's curious that his surname is spelt Poole in some accounts and Pool in others.
He is Poole in the 72sqn ORB record of events. This half of the ORB is downloadable free currently from the Natioal Archives. This only shows him as "bailed out" on that day with no location. It's a bit blurred but there may also be a typo on the aircraft serial as k9570. Whereas k9870 is mentioned on previous days. The other "juicy" part of the ORB I cannot see online, but this is probably the source of Pool's letter in that book. I would have expected a combat report of the incident in that half.
Another place to check is the war diary of 207th heavy anti aircraft battery in the Nat Archives. They were stationed at Iwade an often record details of aerial actions around their emplacements. Again sadly not avaliable online.
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Can't see his combat report but here are a couple of links (dunno why they're so small!)
The latter gives the site of the plane coming down as Milton Regis: "Pool moved to 72 Squadron at Biggin Hill on 3rd October. He was shot down in flames by a Me109 during combat over a convoy off Deal on the 11th and baled out, wounded. His Spitfire, K9870, crashed at Milton Regis, Sittingbourne."
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17386829 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17386829)http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm (http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm)
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm (http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm)
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Can't see his combat report but here are a couple of links:
The latter gives the site of the plane coming down as Milton Regis.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17386829 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17386829)
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm (http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm)
Thank you for the Link Nemo.
Very misleading that Report as of many I have found.Most say "Shot down off Deal".
"Pool moved to 72 Squadron at Biggin Hill on 3rd October. He was shot down in flames by a Me109 during combat over a convoy off Deal on the 11th and baled out, wounded. His Spitfire, K9870, crashed at Milton Regis, Sittingbourne."
Shot down in Flames!If I am right Milton Regis is approximately 36 Miles from Deal,would that be possible?
Welcome dorissdad.
Martin.
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Can't see his combat report but here are a couple of links (dunno why they're so small!):
The latter gives the site of the plane coming down as Milton Regis.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17386829 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17386829)
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm (http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Pool.htm)
I had problems writing as well.
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If he actually bailed out over Deal and landed by parachute 36 miles away in Milton Regis 20 minutes later, then he achieved a fairly remarkable 108 mph drift horizontally in the wind!
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He would be falling Diagonally from 22000ft so quite feasable to drift 36 miles with a following wind.
My maths is not good enough to work out 108mph speed.
Its far more likely he landed near Sittingbourne as he stated in his letter to the Irwin Parachute Company ,than his heavy free falling burning aircraft, landing near Milton from above Deal.
Incidently I wish folks would read through the previous posts before posting.
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To recover normal formatting if text is too big or too small, as in recent posts,
use the "Remove Formatting" button before posting,
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@grandarog"Incidently I wish folks would read through the previous posts before posting."
Could you be a bit more precise please ;)
@Local Hiker.Thank you for your help!
Martin.
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I can't help with what point may have been missed? I can try to clarify my maths....
A 20 minute parachute descent is one third of an hour. Covering a 36 mile horizontal distance in that time then multiply by three for the full hour equals 108 mph average speed.
108mph is an interesting speed as it's about terminal velocity for a person falling to earth in a belly flop position, without a parachute. It's also the average speed of a modern wingsuit. The world record distance travelled in optimum conditions with a modern wingsuit is under 19 miles.
https://wnyskydiving.com/blog/wingsuit-speed-how-fast-can-you-go-in-a-wingsuit/#:~:text=The%20average%20wingsuit%20speed%20is,speed%20takes%20practice%20and%20precision (https://wnyskydiving.com/blog/wingsuit-speed-how-fast-can-you-go-in-a-wingsuit/#:~:text=The%20average%20wingsuit%20speed%20is,speed%20takes%20practice%20and%20precision).
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Cosmo Smallpiece's Post raises some very good points.
Might I suggest that in actual fact P/O Pool actually baled out a lot nearer to Sittingbourne than he thought.
Looking down on East Kent from 22.000 feet ( just over 4 Miles altitude)gives a very wide view. While the combat started over Deal, he may have assumed he was still directly above, when in fact he could have been any where within 30 miles or so and still be able to look down on Deal from that height.
Also he says "at least 20 mins". I don't think we will find a complete solution to this incident.
Hopefully Dorissdad Jeremy will log on soon and perhaps have some more info about his question.
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It's a shame Dorissdad has not popped back here since. I would be curious as why he seeks this location and what sources he may have already tried?
If he does, it's worth highlighting the only rough location given for the spitfire crash is the vicinity of the paper mill. I wonder if the pilot logbook (possibly in family hands) gave up that information?
In the link I first posted, Swift to Battle, there is a further image of Peter Pool on the page following the account of his parachute descent. This image of him and Diana is credited to D.E.Pool, probably his wife Diana Eileen Pool?
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I suspect Grandarog is correct when he says that a complete solution is doubtful.
Neither Pool nor Squadron 72's ORBs give a location for the interception, the latter saying only that the intention was for the 11 Spitfires up from BH at 07:35 to patrol off Deal (at 10,000ft). They were back at BH without further loss by 08:43 and with no claims made.
Assuming I'm reading them correctly, German records are no help either; two pilots from Stab II/JG 53 claimed a Spitfire at 08:55 (their time?) but the location is not recorded.
(Drat, poked the button and still the link appears small; that's my Kindle for you!)
http://aces.safarikovi.org/luftwaffe.wartime.aerial.victory.credits.html (http://aces.safarikovi.org/luftwaffe.wartime.aerial.victory.credits.html)
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I had no more luck with the button poking in my previous post than you did Nemo!
I will drop the images from 72 Sqn ORB here so that everyone can see what was being talked about. I'm guessing the two pilots down later (08:40hrs) are possibly the two guys that Pool claimed hung around to shepherd his descent. The others seemed to have returned in dribs and drabs? I did notice that three others had already returned by 08:10 hrs which had caused me to presume that the incident would not have happened that far from B-H?
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Thanks again for input chaps.
Regarding small link inserts .I have found the only way that works for me is to open the post again with Modify button. Select the mini line of the link , then go to the Font size dropdown and select 12 or 14. This brings the link size up so when I save post it is readable.
Hope this helps .
Maybe Stuart could look into it when he has time,as it never used to happen.