The Kent History Forum

Military History => Miscellaneous Military History => Topic started by: Local Hiker on September 19, 2020, 08:15:58 AM

Title: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Local Hiker on September 19, 2020, 08:15:58 AM
A V2 rocket landing site to be excavated:-
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/wartime-missile-crater-to-be-excavated-234024/ (https://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/wartime-missile-crater-to-be-excavated-234024/)
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 19, 2020, 11:34:05 AM
"Its target would almost certainly have been either Lodge Hill or Chattenden military depots, which had been used to store explosives. Both are nearby." ??? :o
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: castle261 on September 19, 2020, 12:06:34 PM
I only heard one explosion of a V 2 rocket in the Strood / Wainscot area in 1944/5 - (& the swoosh)
That one landed in Salter`s Cross area - I heard of no other - in the area.
I suggest it was an offical / unoffical explosion of unstable explosives - given the depth of the hole.

The RE museum  in Brompton - the Sapper - could have the answer - talk to him ( have V 2 there )
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: grandarog on September 19, 2020, 03:41:40 PM
This is a Map of all recorded V2 Strikes in the area.


Looks like the dig is for this one.
“Incident Number 166 Cliffe Woods.@ 15:40 on Saturday 11 November 1944.Other info:Rocket completely destroyed trees for a radius of 55 feet.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 20, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
I don't see what excavating this crater actually proves. In the previous dig in Lynstead they found a fair bit of rocket parts in the hole, which you would expect had the hole been back-filled with surrounding debris. However many V2s were captured intact by the Allies in the war, so their build is well known. The second revelation is that the high speed of impact means the warhead is buried on detonation producing a limited blast area. Again something that is already well known.


www.kentarchaeology.org.uk › ...PDF lees court estate - Kent Archaeological Society  (https://kenthistoryforum.com/www.kentarchaeology.org.uk › ...PDF
lees court estate - Kent Archaeological Society
)

Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: pete.mason on September 20, 2020, 10:42:47 AM
Cosmo,link doesn't work
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: grandarog on September 20, 2020, 01:35:45 PM
Pete.
 Copy and Paste this link into Google search ,then it will work.
www.kentarchaeology.org.uk › ...PDF lees court estate (https://kenthistoryforum.com/www.kentarchaeology.org.uk%20%E2%80%BA%20...PDFlees%20court%20estate%20-%20Kent%20Archaeological%20Society)

The article on Lynsted starts on Page 6.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 20, 2020, 02:31:08 PM
Yes, sorry. The report is a PDF file and I was struggling to know how to properly link to it?
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: stuartwaters on September 20, 2020, 02:49:49 PM
That link didn't work for me either. Try this:


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/sites/default/files/2019-05/KAS_Newsletter_110_Winter2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj7vaKp7_frAhUvQhUIHYlRA3kQFjAAegQIDBAC&usg=AOvVaw3Q550ijqnDVxSw3aNY7NM4
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 21, 2020, 11:11:05 AM
That works! Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 23, 2020, 05:31:20 PM
I was thinking we had discussed V2 warheads burying themselves into the ground before, but did not go looking for it. Then I saw Invicta Alec's post come up as most recent. His post is in "Personal Memories", which it turns out had the previous V2 thread only a few posts below?
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 26, 2020, 10:01:22 PM
He's the link to the previous V2 thread mentioned below. https://kenthistoryforum.com/index.php?topic=501.0


Another useful site listing V2 launch dates and damage....https://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/timeline.html


I did notice on the comments on the Kent online article here there was a suggestion that the shallow V2 crater at Lodge Hill could be due to the missile striking a tree before hitting the ground. I thought that may have some merit considering the previous discussion?
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Dave Smith on September 29, 2020, 10:06:58 PM
cosmo,At the speed they travelled, and the KE,( anyone still got their Tech. College notes?) there is no way that a tree would have deflected it.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on September 30, 2020, 07:47:11 AM
Agreed. I imagined the suggestion was that striking the tree caused detonation to occur fractionally sooner than had it struck the ground. Less time to bury itself so deeply? I don't recall if anyone here found out what triggered detonation last time around these were discussed?
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Dave Smith on September 30, 2020, 01:51:17 PM
Cosmo. Fractionally- probably 1/200 sec.! at that speed, & that is a very Short time! There were reports of air bursts by V2's, well above the ground, so no crater. Don't forget that 3,000 mph equates to 4,400 ft./ second. So in 1/10 second( a blink is about 1/30 sec.) it travels nearly 150yards.( sorry all you metricated people, at least the seconds are right).       Lyn. Thanks for your good wishes, a very slow process, more so as we get older. Dave
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: grandarog on September 30, 2020, 02:41:58 PM
Judging from the numbers of Airburst V2's were they actually fitted with a fuse to cause them to explode so many feet above ground level ,or was it caused by the cushioning effect of air pressure as they neared ground ,that set off the impact fuse early.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: MartinR on September 30, 2020, 02:57:40 PM
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket#Air_burst_problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket#Air_burst_problem)  It appears that the airbursts were due to re-entry problems.  I don't have the books cited, so haven't followed the references.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Mike Gunnill on September 30, 2020, 04:07:07 PM
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket#Air_burst_problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket#Air_burst_problem)  It appears that the airbursts were due to re-entry problems.  I don't have the books cited, so haven't followed the references.


MartinR: just noticed your back on here. Hope your problems are now sorted.


Mike
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: MartinR on September 30, 2020, 04:20:43 PM
Hi Mike.  It was thanks to you passing on Stuart's email address that I was able to send him details of the problem.  I haven't had a lot to add recently, after upsetting folks on GTP I've stayed clear, and as a recent (35 year) "immigrant" I can't match John's local reminiscences.  It's nice to be able to read the threads again though.  :)
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Dave Smith on September 30, 2020, 08:15:32 PM
grandarog. I don't think there were all that many airbursts as a %. Probably those two plus a malfunction, I don't think will we ever know for certain?
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: grandarog on October 01, 2020, 10:23:07 AM
Interesting snippet from the net about the Cliffe woods incident.

Ratly Hills Wood.

Comment from 'MikeC':
A V2 landed on the very top of the hill at Ratly Hill Woods. Exact date unknown, but late in 1944. I was four years old and playing in my back yard when it landed and can clearly remember the surreal experience of seeing first the explosion, then hearing the bang, followed by the rushing noise of the rocket going "back up" into the sky.
There were no dead or injured at the time, but a serious injury many years later. A woodcutter was sawing pit props for the Kent collieries using a 36" circular saw driven from the power take off of a tractor. He cut into a log that contained an embedded shard of the rocket casing, causing the saw blade to disintegrate and almost sever his arm at the shoulder.




Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Mike Gunnill on October 01, 2020, 11:21:44 AM
Hi Mike.  It was thanks to you passing on Stuart's email address that I was able to send him details of the problem.  I haven't had a lot to add recently, after upsetting folks on GTP I've stayed clear, and as a recent (35 year) "immigrant" I can't match John's local reminiscences.  It's nice to be able to read the threads again though.  :)


Welcome home!
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 03, 2020, 09:22:00 AM
Fuses.... I love it when a thread makes you research something new. The outcome is totally not what intuition makes me believe either...


In WW1 there was the development of the super-quick shell fuse. They wanted artillery to clear barbed wire, so they needed shells to detonate AT the wire, not bury themselves deeply below it.



WW1 - 18 pounder gun. Muzzle velocity 500 m/s
WW2 - Sherman 75mm M3 gun, velocity 600 m/s
V2 missile. Impact velocity 800 m/s


The impact velocity of the V2 is only fractionally faster than the contemporary shells.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on October 03, 2020, 09:32:43 AM
Link to the fuse thing below. Don't know why the link sometimes goes so tiny from this mobile phone? Sorry.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._106_fuze (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._106_fuze)
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Local Hiker on October 03, 2020, 12:14:59 PM
Cosmo Smallpiece, there is a "Remove formatting" button in the toolbar that might restore such small text to a readable size.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Dave Smith on October 03, 2020, 01:20:10 PM
Cosmo. Don't worry, I downloaded your line of small dashes ok. As you say, quite often one thread leads to another. e.g. Stuart has often already done the extra bit when he does his bit on ships for suddenly there's a whole new bit about the reason & history, just as interesting; sometimes more so. Very interesting article about fuses. Don't forget explosions, being mechanical, are not in fact as we think of them, "instantaneous", just VERY rapid burning. We're talking thousandths of a second, which is very short. eg, the V2 has gone 1m in 11/4 thousandths of a second, whereas WW1 shell travels 1m in 2 thousandths of a second from the start of the burning process. Designing such a thing- where do you start? Must be done by trial & error methinks.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: stuartwaters on October 03, 2020, 04:26:59 PM
And as if by magic, the text is now bigger, and whats more important, readable.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Lyn L on October 04, 2020, 12:46:39 PM
Well I don't profess to be any good at all with V2  rockets,  but only have second hand knowledge of any bombing ( born after it was all over) but strangely my eldest brother  today mentioned them being bombed out of their house  in September 1944.
 It wasn't locally though, they were living in Walthamstow, but part of a V2 innards went through the roof. They had to go and live with my Grandad then in Hampshire.
I believe it was a ball shaped thing ?
Please tell me what it could have been all you people who are in the know .  :-*
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: MartinR on October 04, 2020, 01:40:06 PM
It might have been the hydrogen peroxide tank, see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Aggregat4-Schnitt-engl.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Aggregat4-Schnitt-engl.jpg) and notice the "Wasserstoffperoxdtank".
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Lyn L on October 04, 2020, 02:04:59 PM
Thanks MartinR ,
What a lovely name for it.
Mind you it could even have been a V1  flying bomb. My brother didn't remember  it was my late sister told me. Can't ask her now sadly  but there were ball shaped things in them. Could have been the spherical compressed air tanks that drove the gyro's  ? Don't I sound as if I know. Only because my son sent me a pic .
Sorry going off topic.

Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: MartinR on October 04, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
Well if it was a V1, then you've a choice of two, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V-1_cutaway.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V-1_cutaway.jpg)  The two large spheres just abaft the wings held compressed air to drive the flight control system and to pressurise the fuel tank (centre of the fuselage, surrounding the main spar).  The tanks were pressurised to 900 psi (60 bar) so had to be substantial components.  The forward sphere was a lightweight wooden construction that held the compass, so is unlikely to have survived the impact and explosion.
Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: Lyn L on October 04, 2020, 03:05:46 PM
You've cleared it up for me anyway Martin.
I'm really quite glad I wasn't born  and have the experiences my Mum and siblings had. And my Dad came back home  too.

Title: Re: V2 rocket site excavation
Post by: MartinR on October 04, 2020, 03:27:52 PM
Also out of area.  Mum lived in Coventry during the war.  She recalled going into the city after the blitz, but when she returned in the evening the pubs were open, even if just a table in a near ruin, to save their licenses.  I think it was then that they had the roof blown off.  Later in the war she left school and joined the Royal Observer Corps and recalled realising that D-day was on well before the announcement.  Not only was there a vast amount of air traffic, but they kept getting reports of parachutes caught on tail wheels and flight surfaces.  Dad was at school throughout the war and received his call-up at Easter 1945.  He was allowed to defer it for a few months to sit his A-levels (right name?) but then the atom bombs were dropped and he was spared active service.  He would otherwise have completed basic training at about the time the Japanese mainland was invaded, and given the projected casualty rates I probably would never have been born.  I came along 10  years after the war, but still remember playing in bombed-out houses that still hadn't been cleared in the early 1960s.