The Kent History Forum

Religion => Churches, Mosques, Synagogues and Temples => Topic started by: grandarog on July 28, 2020, 03:24:02 PM

Title: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on July 28, 2020, 03:24:02 PM
Essentially a topic about anything and everything about my Village Church.


The Rev John Woodruff 1805-1860 who did so much for the Parish was the Paternal Grandfather on my Maternal Family lineage.


An interesting snippet from a Parish Register entry.
Transcript. July 16th 1851.The bricklayer finished restoring the South side of Upchurch Church.The wall had been plastered over and some of the stones had become unsettled. The mortar on the walls was all pecked offand they were pointed with dark mortar, which was made darker by the addition of damaged gunpowder from the Faversham mills. At the same time two new windows of Case stones were inserted in the wall of the South East Chancel. The contract for pointing the wall was taken at 18 pounds and the new windows at the same sum. 9 pounds each.
John Woodruff
The copy of original below.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Mike Gunnill on July 28, 2020, 08:01:11 PM
grandarog


I am sure you have sen this image before. For others this is grandarog's grandfather Reverend John Woodruff.


Nice story grandarog!
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Smiffy on July 28, 2020, 10:26:51 PM

grandarog,

The entry for the church on the Historic England site states:

"Shingle spire of an eight sided cone placed over a pyramid, built 1915 after an explosion"

Can you throw any light on this explosion and what was the cause of it?
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on July 29, 2020, 10:54:13 AM
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Smiffy on July 29, 2020, 02:14:41 PM
That's a bit strange, perhaps they have some incorrect information being quoted. Here is the entry:

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1343934 (https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1343934)


There is a source mentioned further down the page.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on July 29, 2020, 02:58:52 PM
The Historic England reference appears to be an erroneously expanded reference with the Newman/Pevsner source quote only referring to the 'eight-sided cone slipped over a pyramid' (Newman/Pevsner: Buildings of England; North East and East Kent. Upchurch. p. 477). There is no mention of an explosion, suggesting this might have been added, unless someone here can prove otherwise?
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on July 29, 2020, 03:06:22 PM
Unless they rebuilt it following any explosion, but the church tower had the same/similar roof as can be seen in this painting of 1807.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on July 29, 2020, 03:08:27 PM
And in 1765.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on July 29, 2020, 04:17:57 PM
Mariners had been using ths Spire as a navigation point way back in the 18th century. There is no record of it ever being damaged or rebuilt since that can be found. Certainly not for 1915.
The original Weather Vane which presumably was fitted when the Spire was built was removed when the new donated one was fitted in 1885.
A parishioner has it on his roof in the village now.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: DaveTheTrain on July 29, 2020, 11:41:19 PM
Grandarog,


Do you know what the large stones are that are built into the walls of the surrounding wall?  I don't think I ever recall hearing how come they came to be part of the wall.


DTT
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on July 30, 2020, 10:41:07 AM
DaveTheTrain.
                    They are Sarson stones .In the old days they were placed to mark the Churchyard boundaries.one at each corner. The Northeast one is built into the Wall by the crown.The Southwest one from Horsham Lane is now resited on the corner of Chafes Lane in the Paddock Bank ,opposite the Coop. I don't Know where the other 2 went.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: DaveTheTrain on July 30, 2020, 11:09:27 AM
Thanks Grandarog.  I did not know that, and just looked up Sarsen stone on Wikipedia.  Very interesting.  They have certainly endured.
DTT
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on July 30, 2020, 11:33:45 AM
Slightly off topic for DTT ,
                             Stone Henge .Main big stones are Sarsons .It was on the news this morning they have found out where they were quarried about 15 miles away.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: pete.mason on July 30, 2020, 12:08:28 PM
Slightly off topic for DTT ,
                             Stone Henge .Main big stones are Sarsons .It was on the news this morning they have found out where they were quarried about 15 miles away.


Amazing how "news" does the rounds, I've seen that mentioned several times on programmes relating to Stonehenge and the area over the last 3-4 years
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on July 30, 2020, 11:46:59 PM
The top of the church tower is recorded as being blown off in the accidental explosion of HMS Bulwark moored on the Medway on 26th November 1914. This is the repairs referred to in 1915, I believe.


(Edit. Was actually the Princess Irene explosion - see above )
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on July 31, 2020, 01:05:41 PM
Cosmo Smallpiece can you give us the source of your info re the snuffer
as have not been able to find any so far.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on July 31, 2020, 03:45:07 PM
British Newspaper Archives show many local papers with reports of this. Look around July 1915, where there is mention still of bodies washed ashore and you'll get the spire report come up too. I am not a member but I'll try a screenshot later when back home.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on July 31, 2020, 08:28:04 PM
I've had to create a montage to give a fuller explanation, so forgive the view. In doing this I've realised that it was the HMS Princess Irene explosion on 27th May 1915 that did the damage to Upchurch spire, not HMS Bulwark. You'll see that the previous HMS Bulwark big bang was mentioned for background info in the article, hence my earlier error.


Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on August 01, 2020, 11:07:36 AM
Thanks for that ,
I too had searched everywhere with reference to Bulwark .
Had not considered Princess Irene as she was way out on Saltpan Reach.
Strange I cant find any ref to repairs etc.

Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Mike Gunnill on August 01, 2020, 11:30:31 AM
Thanks for that ,
I too had searched everywhere with reference to Bulwark .
Had not considered Princess Irene as she was way out on Saltpan Reach.
Strange I cant find any ref to repairs etc.


Grandarog:


I think the centre of this is, is what you have mentioned,  it may have been a repair but not a build of the tower.  There are many paintings of the snuffer tower which pre-dates any possible blast damage. Someone feeding incorrect information into the Internet again.


Regards to your end of the village


Mike
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on August 01, 2020, 12:50:54 PM
Strange I cant find any ref to repairs etc.


I could not find anything on repairs either. Which was odd as I would have expected publicity around a funding drive for repairs? Perhaps looking in other local newspapers could turn up something? Especially now we have a firm starting date.


I would not rule out an issue with the newspaper reports being over-sensational. It's a big problem with reporters nowadays whilst articles of 100 years ago seem quite dry by comparison. I would note that those articles are copied word for word across the nations papers so an error there is possible as they could be based on one mistaken hack.


However, I doubt that a source like Historic England would base their declaration of a 1915 build on an internet search of old newspapers. You'd have thought that while examining the church, archaeologists may have come across some paperwork there? An inscription or builders marks in the spire perhaps? Worth a look up there?  ;)
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: stuartwaters on August 01, 2020, 02:49:00 PM
This is fascinating stuff folks, keep it up ;D  One question I have, as someone who is completely ignorant of the finer points of architecture, but is there a reason why the spire at this church is the shape it is? In my work, I travel all over the South and East of the country and I don't recall seeing another like it.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Cosmo Smallpiece on August 01, 2020, 03:48:18 PM
Apparently there's also one on spires in Bexley and Willesborough in Kent. They have a kind of continental look to them? Similar spires in France too.


I was reading about a candle-snuffer spire on Walesby church in Lincolnshire that was removed after hurricane damage. Perhaps they are particularly prone to blast/gust damage by being lifted up?
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on August 03, 2020, 02:10:46 PM
They are a rare thing in this part of the country, and not too common elsewhere. Referred to as a 'Bipartite spire' with an octagonal upper half and square, or broached, lower part below.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Mike Gunnill on August 18, 2020, 08:31:43 AM
They are a rare thing in this part of the country, and not too common elsewhere. Referred to as a 'Bipartite spire' with an octagonal upper half and square, or broached, lower part below.


As an Upchurch resident, I think we all appreciate the " snuffer-tower."  It was there in the days of the father of Francis Drake in 1560, who was the vicar.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on September 14, 2020, 10:08:55 AM
Hasted commented on the Church Spire in 1798.
"The steeple at the west end of the church is very remarkable, being a tower on which is placed a square part of a spire for about ten feet, and on that an octagon for the remaining or upper part to the point of the spire at top."
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: Mike Gunnill on November 15, 2020, 01:59:11 PM
Hasted commented on the Church Spire in 1798.
"The steeple at the west end of the church is very remarkable, being a tower on which is placed a square part of a spire for about ten feet, and on that an octagon for the remaining or upper part to the point of the spire at top."


grandarog:


I wonder what your relation in St Mary's churchyard thinks of the new house development so close to his grave?


Had any feedback?


Mike
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 15, 2020, 05:12:56 PM
I'd heard that the candle-snuffer spires were used to let the sound of the bells out.  St Mary's has louvers at the top of the tower section, but the clock partially obscures them.  I haven't as yet managed to confirm where the bell chamber actually is.  If it is in the square part of the spire that makes some sense.
Local historian David Wood comments:"The tower with its spire is unusual and is known as a ‘candle snuffer.’ There are only three other churches in Kent with similar spires. These are at Willesborough, New Romney and Bexley. The reason for the design is not recorded, but the generally accepted theory is that it was used as a navigation marker for boats sailing along the River Medway because the church is situated high on a hill making it clearly visible from the river. Another theory is that when the bells were installed in the tower the gap between the octagonal top and the square base allowed the sound of the bells to escape uninhibited. However, the true reason remains unclear and unconfirmed." See https://upchurchmatters.blogspot.com/2019/11/mysteries-of-upchurch-church-by-david.html
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 15, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
A bit more information, particularly for Grandarog:
In 1862 two new bells were cast to augment the existing ring of 4 into the present ring of 6.  They were the numbers 5 and 6 (9-2-18 and 12-1-14 respectively) and may have been cast from the metal of earlier bells.  Both bells have the inscription "G. MEARS & CO. FOUNDERS LONDON 1862" around the crown (Mears were the then occupants of the Whitechapel Bell Foundry).  However on the body of the bells are the two lines:

REVd JOHN WOODRUFF VICAR
Wm SOLOMON CHURCH WARDEN

I would assume that the John Woodruff who was vicar in 1862 was Grandarog's grandfather, but how do the dates given of 1805-1860 tie up with the bells being cast in 1862?
See http://kent.lovesguide.com/tower.php?id=233
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on November 15, 2020, 07:09:59 PM
Thanks for that MartinR.
 In answer to your previous query .The bells are on steel cradles approx 2 Metres above the top of the Clock face in the square tower..There is nothing in the snuffer it just sits on top . The Clock was installed by public subscription after WW1 as a memorial to give thanks. The striking chime mechanism was added in 1925 when the Bells were rehung on a new metal system .The striking mechanism linkage goes up through the floor above the clock works to the bells above. There is a disconnect system operated by rope from the ground floor of the tower for when the bells are being rung. They are rung from the ground floor. Yes you are right about Rev Woodruff he was incumbent as Vicar of Upchurch from 1834 -1869.His Vault is directly in front of the Tower Door.The 5 G and 6 F Tenor Bells were recast in 1862 from the old bells at the behest of John and William who raised the cost of recasting. There have been a few problems with the security and safety of the bells over the years but they are all OK at the moment. Normally they are rung for practice on Wednesday evenings (Covid Exception) .
Photo below is of the Clock Mechanism.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 15, 2020, 09:15:48 PM
Thanks Grandarog.  Love's Guide isn't clear on this, it mentions the old bells as having been "recast", but then in the history it only says that the new bells were "cast".  Surprisingly the old inscriptions were not carried forwards.  Sorry to be picky, but if the bells are 2m above the clock face, did you mean that they are in the square tower or square spire?  I don't think I've ever rung there, so haven't had a chance to examine them.
Clocks as memorials were fairly common, the clock at Frindsbury looks very similar and that was also a memorial from around that time.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 15, 2020, 09:50:16 PM
A bit more on the navigational mark theory.  Imray chart 2100.5 just indicates a prominent spire in Upchurch, no bearings or leading lights.  Admiralty chart 1834 (folio 8.1) doesn't even show Upchurch, the area there is covered by a chartlet showing the southern end of Otterham Creek.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: grandarog on November 16, 2020, 08:31:00 AM
Sorry ,not clear info. Should have said in the square spire. The bell chamber floor is level with the top of the stone tower and the bell framework starts at that level,  rope wheels ,bells etc are all within.

Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on November 16, 2020, 08:50:21 AM
Interesting to know where in New Romney one of the other examples of this roof is. There is only one church in the town and it has no spire at all. I did wonder if it meant Old Romney, but that has a traditional 'Kentish' broach spire. I'll check the other Romney Marsh churches to see if any of those have this unusual spire type.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 16, 2020, 09:45:17 AM
Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Augustine%27s_Church,_Brookland which has a double candle-snuffer.  Originally it was an open framework, but was clad in C15.  Internally it is clear that the bells are carried on the original square frame mounted on massive ground beams whilst the cladding is carried on a lighter octagonal frame.  There's no chance of the original shape being a navigation mark, AIUI the break in the outline is purely to allow the sound of the bells to escape.  After all, enclosed quiet bells are a 21C phenomenon so as not to disturb the neighbours - historically the bells are meant to disturb them, and get them to the church on time.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on November 16, 2020, 12:11:56 PM
I had considered Brookland Bellfry Martin R, which in affect could be referred to as a triple 'candle snuffer', but dismissed this as not being quite the same as Upchurch, or Bexley church bipartite spires, both of which stand on stone towers and surmount the base of a traditional square pyramidical spire base. The Brookland belfry is a real oddity for Kent, and possibly unique in the county. Not to be confused with the timber west tower of High Halden church, though later in date is constructed similarly to that of Brookland with a central four-post square tower frame surrounded with an octagonal timber base. 
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 16, 2020, 12:23:49 PM
Accepted that they are quite different, I was just drawing attention to the fact that Brookland could not be a navigation mark and does need to let the sound out which were the two theories put forward for Upchurch.  Given the chart information and position (it is not at the end of any reach or creek) I can't see the navigation idea.  Furthermore, it would often be in the distance against the sun (because it lies to the south of the river) which makes for difficult fine detail.  As a spire it is useful, but I personally don't buy the candle-snuffer design as a form of topmark.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on November 16, 2020, 02:37:14 PM
I quite agree Martin R regards the lack of use as a navigational point at Brookland, though worth considering the original route of the River Rother prior to the storm of c.1287, which would have seen Brookland closer to the river side than it is to the sea today. I could see the church tower/spire at Upchurch being utilised, but not constructed especially, though the other bipartite spire at Bexley is too far from the waters edge to be of any navigational use. 
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 16, 2020, 02:40:45 PM
Err, (Brookland was clad in C15, so would not have been visible prior to 1287).
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on November 16, 2020, 02:52:34 PM
Lets not forget St Mary's Church, Willesborough, near Ashford, which shares similarities with Upchurch and Bexley, but definitely can't be use for navigation. 


Brookland, 'Clad' or 'reclad' in the fifteenth century? Recent survey of the Brookland belfry suggests that whilst some of the earlier timbers in the main tower show signs of weathering, this is not enough to show it was fully exposed to the weather for any long period of time, but instead periods of neglect to its other sheathing allowed weather ingress. This evidence implies the tower was always clad from the onset and that its current appearance occurred through a process of addition and adaption throughout the mid - late medieval periods and not as a single phase of alteration.   
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 16, 2020, 04:46:13 PM
Is that information available online?  The WP page doesn't reflect it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: CAT on November 17, 2020, 09:06:40 AM
I found reference to the recent survey in the thesis of Alan Dickinson titled 'The Timber Towers and Spires of Romney Marsh and Hinterland'. A very interesting study that I'm sure will keep you interested for quite a while Martin R? See rmrt.org.uk/assets/timbertowers.pdf
Title: Re: St Mary the Virgin .Upchurch
Post by: MartinR on November 17, 2020, 10:24:48 AM
Thanks CAT.  I've downloaded it and will study it at my leisure.  I was particularly interested to see that there was a section covering what Dickinson calls "timber towers in the nave".  As a ringer I've noticed several of the smaller churches have adopted them to keep the weight (and swinging forces) of the bells off weak walls.  Where I first noticed this style was St. Mary's, Kemsing.  Anyhow, thanks and I'll stop straying off Upchurch.