The Kent History Forum
Travel and Transport => Roads, Tracks and Paths => Topic started by: Smiffy on April 20, 2020, 02:47:57 AM
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I have no information as to when this interesting little thoroughfare connecting the High street with Medway street first came into being, the earliest mention I can find comes from the 1858 Melvilles Directory of Kent. By then it appears to have already become well established and fully occupied, with tradespeople of all descriptions present, including the following:
A confectioner and lemonade manufacturer, a greengrocer, a beer house, an egg merchant, a Watch and clock maker, 2 boot and shoe makers, 2 tobacconists, an artist, a builder, a cabinet maker, 2 milliners plus a dressmaker, 2 hat and cap makers, a rate collector, a tailor, a baker and a pawnbroker.
A general view towards the High street dating from the 1940's:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x80HDy8Y/Watts-Place.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
For more than a century following this period, it seems to have continued to be the home of many small businesses, probably catering for a clientele belonging to a somewhat lower wage bracket. I'm pretty sure that I can remember it being referred to as "Broad Pavement", although I can find no written proof of this. There maybe a reader or two able to confirm this from their own personal memories of the area.
1953 Kelly's entry showing the variety of shops and services provided:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPDnr3B8/Kelly-s1953.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Watts' Place and some of the other properties fronting the High street were earmarked for demolition in 1961. This was in order to make way for a new development that was to house Bates department store (later Bentalls) and a Sainsbury's supermarket. The modern building remains and is now occupied by Argos.
High street entrance from 1961, with vacant premises to either side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3cgSPPd/Watts-Place-1961.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
No doubt by this time it had become somewhat run-down and ramshackle in appearance. But with its passing, yet another piece of Chatham's own particular and unique character, that which once endeared it to so many of its inhabitants - was gone forever.
Map showing the location of Watts' Place for reference:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn3J2d1P/Watts-map.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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There were 107 people recorded as living at Watts Place on the 1841 Census.
Couple of Pubs there over the years
1. Forster's Arms ,12 Watts Place. Chatham.
The Licensing Directory of 1872 says this was called the "Forester's Restaurant," operating under a beer license and was owned by Benjamin Gilbert of Burnt Oak Terrace in Gillingham.
In the 1882 and 1891 directories the address is given as being Medway Street.
2. Sultan, 10, Watts Place, Chatham
(At 20 Watts Place in 1882, 1901 and 1911)
Mike Gunnill, mentions, Watts Avenue, Rochester in read no 9 .
Do we know who "Watt" was?
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grandarog
Thanks, some info there that takes it back to at least 1841. I can only assume that the name Watt comes from Richard Watt of Watts Charities.
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Richard Watts Charity was set up in the will of his in 1579 when he died, as well as several other charities in Rochester and Medway area.
Watts owned leases on the lands and properties hence why his name is all over the place and "Watts Place" rent was paid to his charities.
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Two priceless photos on this thread - thank you for sharing them.
These prove that a picture paints a thousand words!
Alec.
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When the yard closed I worked for Watts charity,as handy man,lovly job ,really good boss (lady) full title ,Clerk to the Trustees ,Watts owned large parts of Chatham and Rochester in there day,remember the "Black &white milk bar"the old Labour exchange building plus most of Medway street ,all owned by the charity,Thay had property in Maidstone,and yalding ,Fantfarm,.
A number of houses in Watts Avn Rochester ,The six poor travelers ,Rochester High street ,even had property in London, much of it came to the charity when it absorbed other charities,.
At one time Watts had a nursing section,that looked after the poor,long since gone,even today Thay still pay pensions,allso provided aprentiships,to local boys ,own a number of buildings in and around Rochester providing rent free acomadation to selected persons,the publicl baths on the esplanade Rochester (long since gone ) allso contributed to the cost of a sailing training ship Churchill.dream job,but nothing lasts forever .
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The nursing service was absorbed into the NHS when it was founded in 1946. Liability to fund it lay then with the county council, if charities assisted they paid 25%, the council the rest. The Charity Commissioners did not approve of charities permanently supporting the NHS (as an arm of government), so the system ceased for all new cases at the end of 1950. Existing cases were progressively transferred to the NHS and Watts' nursing service ceased to funtion at the end of FY 1957/8.
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Nursing service watts Charites.
When I worked for watts Thay still had a Matron plus two nurses ,who lived in the alms houses on Maidstone road Rochester,there sole task was caring for the residents,visiting each day and twenty four hour cover of an emergency alarm system,the Matron was responsible for day to day administration of nursing staff and residents,at Watts plus three other residential establishments.
Interesting point.
During my time there I discovered port of the subterranean remains of the Nepoleonic guard house under St Cathrins Hospital top of star hill
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That makes a lot of sense. The current St Catherine's Almshouses are a "new" build from 1805. The original was at the foot of Star Hill and was Simon Pontyn's original St Catherine's leper hospital from 1315.
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There was an `open day`in September, when you could visit the Almshouses ( if you had booked it )
I went one year, and was shown over a house in Watt`s Avenue + one of the bungalow`s.
Very interesting ---------- No visiting at present.
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Whilst i don't know the area as well as most on here, I do have two glass plate slides in my collection showing Watt's Place, one each from either end. Interestingly, the image posted by Smiffy is a reduced version of one, which I include in its full format, with the second image looking down from the other end. Interestingly again, the pics i have are generally thought to be from the first half of the 1950's, whilst Smiffy suggests the first pic could be as early as the 1940's. Is there anything in each image that could clarify this?
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Have a close look at the car,at the fare end ,can't remember any slope backs about till at least the early fifties ,allso there was a drinking club on the left hand side looking up the ally "The Ivey leaf "club that opened circa1955/57.but was closed when I worked for Watts.Though the building facades remaind until demolition,by the way Watts owned the flour mill next to sun pier at one time
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All I can say about the photo is that it was labelled as being taken in 1945 which on reflection is probably incorrect. The Kelly's from 1953 seems to pretty much correspond with the businesses seen in the picture, with the exception of Jeff's Cafe. This was still there until demolition and isn't listed in an earlier Kelly's, so perhaps the photographs actually date from a little later?
Colin, wasn't the Ivy Leaf a bit further up the High street, near the Higgins Lane entrance?
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Smiffy thank you for correcting me re the ivy leaf club, I know I should check all available information prior to posting ,but obviously I did not,I relied on my memory,a dangerous think in my case😁 To save any more misleading posts, and save my embaresment from now on I will restrict my posts,I thank you gents for your understanding.please keep posting the
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Colin, there's no need to apologise. Keep on posting - even if your memories sometimes play tricks (don't all of us suffer from this at times?) they can still act as a prompt for other peoples recollections.
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I have the book 'Around Rochester. With the Dudley Studios Collection.' (Highly recommended :) )
In the introduction it notes that they set up their studio just after the war at No 11 Watts Place before moving to St Margarets Banks in the mid 50s and ceasing trading in 2002. It says that this area was originally used by Watts for grazing his cattle before the street was constructed in 1831 and known locally as Broad Pavement. Subsequently demolished in Dec 1961.
I wonder if the photos on this thread were taken by the studios as this is the type of work they were known for.
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I'm not sure if I remember it , probably thinking of what was in Globe Lane if I'm honest, nice to see photo's though thank you all xx
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shoot999, thanks for that, we now have a construction date of 1831 and confirmation of the Broad Pavement name. That book sounds interesting.
Like Lyn, I have no specific memories of Watts Place, but must have walked by it a fair few times when I was a child.
Here is the Kelly's from 1933, twenty years before the other one. As you can see there are some occupants that must have been there for quite a while - in fact, some are also present in the 1926 entry.
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Thanks Smiffy-- I wonder why I walked down Watt`s Place, from the High Street.
To get a bus from Globe Lane, I presume. It was always a pleasure walking down there.
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Have a close look at the car,at the fare end ,can't remember any slope backs about till at least the early fifties
Colin,
I'm pretty convinced that the car at the end of the street is a Jowett Javelin. This model was produced between 1947 and 1953. We therefore at least have an earliest possible date for the photo.
Alec.
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Interesting to hear that my two pics could have been produce by a local studio. However, it was of further interest that the trimmed version of the first pic is from a book by the Kent Gazette as the extensive collection of glass plate photographs I have were supposed to have come from a local (Kentish) newspaper. There is the possibility both pics were takenfor an article entitled 'around Medway', with other street scenes included.
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Invicta Alec - I agree with you about the car being a Jowett Javelin. My brother-in-law's father had one, and according to him it would never run if it was raining!
CAT, where did you get the glass plates? Were they rescued from a skip or something, or did you purchase them?
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A bit of both. I purchased them from a friend, who informed me they came from the cellar of an abandoned building in Canterbury being demolished in the mid-late 1950s. In total there are nearly 25,000 seperate images of all types of topics from around Kent with a strong bios towards the Medway towns.
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CAT, that's an amazing find, you may have some unique and rare views amongst them. Just storing them alone must be a bit of a problem. How far have you got in cataloging them all - I assume that you are scanning them in to your computer and storing them electronically for convenient reference? With 25,000 to sort out this sounds like it might be a long job!
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Colin, there's no need to apologise. Keep on posting - even if your memories sometimes play tricks (don't all of us suffer from this at times?) they can still act as a prompt for other peoples recollections.
Indeed, I couldn't agree more. The whole point of a forum is to discuss things and the more senior amongst us will have first hand recollections of things that the more junior ones can only read about in books. So, if anyone feels they can contribute to a discussion, please do so without fear of embarrassment. Memories can get confused, facts forgotten and the point is that all this can come out during the discussion.
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A bit of both. I purchased them from a friend, who informed me they came from the cellar of an abandoned building in Canterbury being demolished in the mid-late 1950s. In total there are nearly 25,000 seperate images of all types of topics from around Kent with a strong bios towards the Medway towns.
Very interesting find CAT. Well done.
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Cat. Fantastic that all those have been salvaged rather than destroyed as so often happens," good on you"! If those are all glass plates (1/4 plate is 41/4" x 31/4" & 1/2 plate 61/2" x 41/4" if I remember rightly) they were probably from a photographic studio, who tended to take portraits on tripod mounted plate cameras & had the facilities to develop, fix & dry them. AND store them! The photographer was also a keen photographer, which would be a natural hobby, to go out & about taking pictures around Kent. He'd have used the camera- or similar- that he was most familiar with, hand held or tripod. I think you've got your work cut out trying to copy them- although copiers now will convert negatives to positives- as that size copier would "cost a bomb"! AND it would take for ever! Sorry to be negative but having had the job of transferring 3,500 35mm slides to my computer- & doing less than half, I speak from experience. A lot, I suspect will be portraits?, so maybe print( contact) any that take your fancy & then copy them to computer via your printer. You can join in the " guess the place" then.
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Many thanks all for the comments regards their saving. Each slide measures 120mm x 90mm (roughly 4 3/4'' x 3 1/2''). Whilst I do think they are from a private studio collection, there are very few actual person portraits, instead large amounts of curious events in, and around Kent ranging from the late 1940s to the mid 1950s. Storing is a problem, but they came in 159 handmade wooden boxes each with approximately 160 slides in each and are stored in my cellar, which maintains a cool [/size]dry environment. These are separated into subject groups, some of several slides, some singular, with each group placed in a paper envelope with a simple description written in pencil and a reference(?) number. My very patient wife catalogued them all over a very gloomy winter and produced a digital spreadsheet. We spent a bomb a few years ago and have the ability to scan them at home and together we have done about 400, so only another 24,600 to go as well as my collection of Victorian church slides (approx. 400) and 1960-70s historic [/size]Kent houses 35mm slides (approx. 2400) :( . Its finding the time, but one day!.
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As well as guess the place, perhaps you should start your own topic where you can occasionally post one of your slides that you think may be of particular interest? CAT's Collection :)
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Exellent idea Smiffy - My particular interest is in the layout of the Brook between the Town Hall,
along the Brook, to Sly Kate`s Hill. The raised pavement along the north side + the area of the
roads, displaced by the Pentagon. Years ago half of the `Brook `was like the banks in Rochester
High Street, for half it`s length - raised 8) :-X
( Slickett`s Hill )
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Many thanks all for the comments regards their saving. Each slide measures 120mm x 90mm (roughly 4 3/4'' x 3 1/2''). Whilst I do think they are from a private studio collection, there are very few actual person portraits, instead large amounts of curious events in, and around Kent ranging from the late 1940s to the mid 1950s.
That sounds about right for a professional studio/photographer. Whilst the portrait work gave a steady stream of revenue, many of the studios at the time freelanced for the various local papers. In fact a key factor in running a story was whether a photo of the event/place/incident was available. For example Dudley Studios of Watts Place freelanced for the local Medway Papers, East Kent Gazette, Kent Messenger, etc. So these guys were out and about most days snapping away at anything and everything on spec.
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CAT. That's exactly what I said- one day! So it's frustrating that now I have " all the time in the world", I'm not at home & just have this Chromebook & no slides to copy, let alone the copier! Your wife must have the patience of Jobe, so congratulations to her. I think shoot999 has it, with the absence of portraits, they are the work of a freelance photographer, travelling the County. By the way, your cellar may be cool but make sure it isn't damp, otherwise you could get mould forming on the glass slides. Particularly when they've been out of their sleeves in the presence of people- warm moist air. "Which"( that I am a member of), did a Test Lab. report on dehumidifiers some time ago &, as usual, some were a lot better than others.
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In my time working for watts,one of the senior trustees was aMr Read ,he had a family business in Rochester high street ,corner of vines lane,mostly China wear and expensive ornaments,
He was a real gentalman of the old school. My point :- Mr Read had a number of albums containing photographs of much of watts property ,I was privileged to see a few of them,some dated back to ww1 at least,have a vague idea the photographer responsible for many of the.photos was was a firm called How's had a studio somewhere near the Synagogue in Rochester /Chatham high street,just wondering if Thay are still around?may be watts administration ,or Rochester mesueam.just asking .
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I remember this area well - I only used it as a short cut to the buses.
To pack so many businesses - in a small area like `Watts Place` was unusual - I never visited any of the three cafes - very unusual for one short street.
For people that may not know the area ` Watts Place ` is a very short street with no pavement`s
with lamp lights in the centre. The shop`s therefor, are small looking on the outside. if you go down the street now it is a derelict wide ally way, with a kink in it, whereas, when Watts Place was alive, it
was very straight. Used car dealers had taken over between them, taken some of the space.
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Colin Walsh I used to go into Reads [was it Reeves] china shop quite often for a look around I remember the upstairs part very low ceiling which made it look very long room. Sold lovely crockery.
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In my time working for watts,one of the senior trustees was aMr Read ,he had a family business in Rochester high street ,corner of vines lane,mostly China wear and expensive ornaments,
He was a real gentalman of the old school. My point :- Mr Read had a number of albums containing photographs of much of watts property ,I was privileged to see a few of them,some dated back to ww1 at least,have a vague idea the photographer responsible for many of the.photos was was a firm called How's had a studio somewhere near the Synagogue in Rochester /Chatham high street,just wondering if Thay are still around?may be watts administration ,or Rochester mesueam.just asking .
Howe T E Ltd were commercial and portrait photographers at 24 High Street Chatham. Looking at street view now it is CederOak Training Centre, next door to Tangs Chinese Restaurant, which has been there as a restaurant for over 60 years under various names.