The Kent History Forum

Industry => Utilities - Gas and Gas Works => Topic started by: stuartwaters on December 29, 2020, 06:11:07 PM

Title: Gas Works
Post by: stuartwaters on December 29, 2020, 06:11:07 PM
I originally joined the old forum to add some detail to the rebuilding of Christ Church Luton. My professional background is in the Gas Distribution industry and personally in church matters these are not subjects which come up very often on the forum. I do regularly visit the forum and where I can add a viewpoint and join in GTP where I can.


I'd love to read about the manufacture, storage and distribution of gas Lutonman. I know that all towns had a Gasworks, where coal gas was made and stored. With the advent of Natural Gas from the North Sea in the 1970's, the making of coal gas stopped and these places became storage facilities with their large gasometers. Now, these are being phased out if they haven't been already and the gasometers, many of them local landmarks, are being demolished.


I'd also love to read about the history of the church you mention. Churches (of the Church of England variety) used to be at the centre of community life and not just for their religious role, but they were often at the centre of local government. I know that Edward Muddle, who bought the Gillingham shipyard, located at the current site of the Strand Boatyard, was heavily involved with the Parish Council at St Mary Magdalene in Gillingham.


As I've stated in a previous post on this thread, I'm not overly fussed if spelling and grammar are not perfect and if it's particularly bad, I'm happy to correct it. The whole point of a public Forum like this is to share knowledge and stories, to discuss and ask questions.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: MartinR on December 29, 2020, 08:18:21 PM
Possibly, OT, but how is gas stored nowadays?  I can remember learning about gasometers (and their ingenious water seals) at school, but as they are phased out what is put in their place?  Also OT, remember that any homes to be built after 2023 will not be permitted to be connected to the gas grid and will not be allowed to have fossil-fueled boilers.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Dave Smith on December 30, 2020, 01:46:41 PM
Stuart. I don't know whether Lutonman was also involved with the manufacture of gas, I'll leave that to him. But a consequence of the manufacture was that there was a lot of coke left after the gas had been extracted. This was used commercially & industrially for heating systems; Schools, Hospitals, factories, etc., although very large installations using steam still used coal( anthracite or large "steam coal"). Most large towns had a gas works, with the obligatory gasometer, or 2 or 3, to store the gas. These, as you said, could increase in volume by moving the inner tanks up (usually 3 in total), with a water seal within a " gutter"- about 10" wide & deep- between them. The system worked quite well as the gas was not at a great pressure & 12" mains were standard in towns, going back many years to the gas lit streets & homes. Trouble occurred when "natural" gas was discovered in the N.Sea & more so, in the Middle East. It was much cheaper in comparison, so became a must have & didn't smell BUT worked at a much higher pressure. Because of this increased pressure, which was reduced somewhat for domestic/ commercial use, the gas could be compressed &  stored in H.P. pipes, doing away with the gasometers. And the gas works of course. So no more coke. But this was replaced in commercial/industrial heating by this new, cheap gas. So there was a nationwide change over of heating boilers from coke to gas, quite a big programme in which I was very much involved in the mid 70's. A few years later came the " clean air act", so coal became a no no & was replaced domestically with "smokeless fuel"( bricquets, etc.) & industrially, larger hospitals etc., by heavy oil or gas. As mentioned, this natural gas was at a higher pressure than " towns" gas & caused problems in places by leaking, with the consequential explosions!  My brother on law was an engineer with a firm who did gas & fuel pipelines across the country( my sister met him when he was an x-ray welder at the IoGrain oil refinery). One job,they were tasked with replacing the mains in Cambridge & found that in places the original pipe had rusted way & the gas was held in place by the solid clay surrounding it! There must have been hundreds similar! Someone asked about the areas occupied by gasometers- what happened when they were no longer needed. It was a very precarious situation for the ground beneath was highly toxic with " heavy metals" etc. The only way to use it safely was to excavate the whole are to a depth of 12ft.! Occasionally, like the one in Carlisle which my B in Law( now working for Brit. Gas) was about to take down, suddenly had a court order prohibiting the demolition as it was of " historic significance"! I've tried to precis this but any more questions, please ask &, hopefully, I will be able to answer.   
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Longpockets on December 30, 2020, 03:27:24 PM
Gasometers.

In Maidstone the one/ones by the river and the new bridge has/have been replaced by Wickes' car park or if I have got the geography wrong an ASDA  Home store, car park, Hobby Craft, TK Max and The Range.


Coming into St. Pancras Station by train, to the left, the Gasometer support steel has been preserved and flats have been built inside the structure.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: pete.mason on December 30, 2020, 03:48:54 PM
I think on M/s gas works was on the hobbycraft site. I can remember going thee with Dad late 1950s to get coke as there was some sort of strike on. Had to wait while it cooled and was broken up. What a stench too 1910 map attached
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: MartinR on December 30, 2020, 04:50:55 PM
Gas and coke have had an interesting partnership over the years.  Coke was needed for industrial purposes, particularly smelting.  The gas was seen as a noxious result to be vented to air.  After a period of being burnt off as waste it was eventually used for lighting and became the more important product.  The people and places involved in this transition read like a who's who of 18C engineering: Boulton, Murdoch, Spedding, Watt, the Carron Ironworks and the Cornish mines.  With the coming of electricity gas value fell whilst demand for coke rose.  The gas companies then pushed gas not only for cooking, but for central heating, and eventually gas again became the dominant factor.  Mixed town/petroleum gas was cheaper in the '60s, then in the '70s natural gas came on stream.  What happens to the gas produced during coke manufacture nowadays I don't know.
I remember coal fires in the Black Country in the early '60s, then in 1965 we moved back to Sheffield and due to the clean air act could not burn coal and had to use coke.  Nothing like as nice to watch and not as good for toast or crumpets.  Later on we lost the coke fires to gas central heating and gas fires.  Still usable for toast but nothing like as good.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Dave Smith on December 30, 2020, 05:13:48 PM
Lonpockets. If a preservation order is in place, the Gas board are obliged to keep the structure in good condition. Very expensive just painting it every few years. Flats would be ideal to utilise the ground for they don't usually have gardens, so the removal of " nasties" would be sufficient. I suspect there are quite a number with preservation orders throughout the land, as they became landmarks for locals. Are there any in Kent please, anyone?
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: John Walker on December 30, 2020, 05:39:24 PM
Here's one of the three preserved structures at the rear of Kings Cross Station.  There are three in total.  two of then have 'des-res' apartments in the the third has a lawn and seating.  They overlook the Regents Canal.
In my visits to the area over the years, I've seen it transform from a run down industrial backwater area to a very popular canal side visitor/residential/retail/university area.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on December 30, 2020, 07:19:23 PM
Well there's lot in the previous posts about gas.
As far as I am aware none in Kent have a preservation order on them, the Gas Holders (not meters) although they have long been referred to as such at The Oval and St Pancras do have orders. The ones at Pancras had to be moved slightly to accommodate the Eurostar lines and then returned in place. The three holders here had the only known 3 holder attached to one column. The ones at the Oval have also an order on them and will be built around.


The matter of coal gas (Town gas) production preceded me although my father in law was an electrician at the Gas works in Gillingham. Towns gas indeed operated at lower pressures generally and the new Natural gas came out of the ground in the North sea at very much higher pressures. over 100 bar circa 1500 psi. In order to get that to us high pressure pipelines were built and a stinking agent added at places like Bacton and Easington on the East coast terminals.  The pressures were broken down in various stages to get it to the similar pressures we had with Towns gas. If you look behind the holder at Gillingham yo can see the High pressure tanks (cylinders) which are operated up to 500 psi. There are some at Grain and Eastbourne. Incidentally Grain and many works site also had compressors to allow the "pumping" of gas from one town to another. 


It was not so much the pressures that caused an increase in leakage it was primarily the fact that Natural gas is very dry and town gas was very wet. The old cast iron pipe joint were made using jute or yarn caulked with lead and Natural gas caused this to dry out and so leak at the joint. 


The introduction of PE pipe to replace old cast iron pipe has largely solved that problem on pipes up to 12", replacing above that size has slowed because of the Gas regulator cutting funding allowances.


The problems with emissions will probably see the end of Natural gas but already work is being trialled on hydrogen gas networks to take over.


As far as Maidstone Gas works is concerned, I was at Maidstone area office in 1969 and the holders were just being demolished and the map shown was correct. The works was on the river side because the coal barges would come up the river to be off loaded (at Gillingham it has its own creeks). Whilst one holder was being demolished one guy thought it would be a good idea to "dump" his old car into the rather large hole. That was till the Area Engineer found out and made him get the car out again. The Engineer wanted the hole compacted carefully to avoid future subsidence appearing.


Happy to answer any questions if anyone is interested but I joined SEGB in 1969 so Gasworks really proceeded me.
 

Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Dave Smith on December 31, 2020, 10:56:19 AM
John Walker. A most interesting photo' of the flats, well positioned within the old gas HOLDER(LM). It gives a good indication of how robust the framework was. Can you imagine moving that lot- "slightly"!- for the Eurostar lines, & then putting it back.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Stewie on December 31, 2020, 12:20:14 PM
I believe that the structure(s) was completely taken down, cleaned and reassembled as part of the building programme, because for a few years there was a pieces visible from the train. It was a good use of the structure though to incorporate them into the flats.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on December 31, 2020, 02:53:58 PM
Stewie, I am pretty sure your right. Although not my area I was in touch with the company building the Eurostar and had to go to their offices at Euston. Which is where the general discussion took place about gas pipe diversions and their problems. The chat moved on to the holders.



Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Stewie on December 31, 2020, 04:22:37 PM
Hi Lutonman, ironically my railway career led to me being involved in the works at St Pancras!
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: John Walker on December 31, 2020, 07:43:19 PM



An interesting web page




Historic Gasholder No8 at King's Cross (https://www.kingscross.co.uk/gasholder-8)
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on January 01, 2021, 04:40:43 PM
Thank John Walker, very interesting, glad my little bit of knowledge led to opening this up.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Howardws on January 01, 2021, 06:25:45 PM
Possibly, OT, but how is gas stored nowadays?
The gas system is basically a national grid I think you will find. The main pipework is of large diameter and the gas is compressed to a high pressure, so the grid is the storage system. We had huge gasometers because they stored the gas at normal operating pressure.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Stewie on January 01, 2021, 06:59:28 PM
Ah! I had always assumed that the concertinaing effect of the collapsing gasometer pressurised the system.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Howardws on January 02, 2021, 07:55:02 AM
I think that assumption is correct, after all the pressure was very low. The present high pressure system has all been installed since the advent of natural gas. My brother built a steam boat years ago and the boiler barrel was made of a short piece of gas main pipe begged off the men installing the main near his home. The boiler operated at 120psi but the barrel would have been safe for many, many times that pressure.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on January 02, 2021, 01:59:22 PM
Stewie,
They did /do not work that way, in fact the opposite. The higher the holder the higher the pressure is created (known as thrown). But the difference in pressure when a holder is full to when nearly empty is not a great deal. Typically pressures were measured in inches water gauge and a full holder on a 3 /4 lift holder would be 12"wg, but as it emptied down to 4" wg. District pressures in those days were much lower as cookers/ fire etc could cope with the lower pressures. Modern boiler just wont work with those type of pressure.
The whole gas supply system was stood on it's head with the advent of Natural gas arriving already being at higher pressures and the job was then to reduce the pressure to a manageable one for the district gas mains. Previously compressors were used to allow the use of medium pressure pipes around town and between the towns. For instance Medway still has a medium pressure 18"ring main now largely replaced by PE pipes originally operating at 20 psi (the maximum allowed for cast iron mechanical jointed pipe). Chatham Dockyard had its own 9" steel pipework fed from both Gillingham and Rochester but only at 5 psi.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: MartinR on January 02, 2021, 02:47:19 PM
@LutonmanWhen we were converted to natural gas the burners on the cooker had to be replaced (free) and I think some of the gas fires needed "rejetting".  More modern equipment was dual fuel (natural/town), I don't know how that worked.  We didn't have a boiler in those days.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on January 02, 2021, 03:12:39 PM
MartinR,
Yes on conversion the burning power (Calorific Value) of Natural gas was different to Town gas and quite a number of other characteristics were also different, so new burners were needed. Now days the industry knows more and can convert the gas itself. Just a few burners were able to cope with the two types of gas.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: johnfilmer on January 02, 2021, 03:20:07 PM
The older gas appliances had multiple individual gas jets, often with their own aeration. All of those either had to be replaced when being converted, or the whole gas train may have been upgraded to a more adaptable box style burner. These had only a single injector per burner, easily swopped over on conversion.


Most conversions for common appliances were in kit form, easily fitted by the retrained, non gas industry workforce. My old business partner was a charge hand on conversion, and having a gas background was usually tasked with converting the uncommon, known as ad hoc conversions, as he made up the conversion from the piles of bits in the van.


Some cookers water heaters and fires could not be converted, those lucky souls got a replacement refurbished, or even new appliance.


I was running a heating service department from 1972 and we just caught the end of conversion, by which time they generally knew what they were doing. Boilers were frequently supplied in the wrong gas by builders merchants. I’m sure they did it just to cause mayhem.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on January 02, 2021, 03:51:38 PM
Thanks for the detail Johnfilmer, not my area being a gas distribution pipe man.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Stewie on January 02, 2021, 05:25:59 PM
Stewie,
They did /do not work that way, in fact the opposite. The higher the holder the higher the pressure is created (known as thrown). But the difference in pressure when a holder is full to when nearly empty is not a great deal. Typically pressures were measured in inches water gauge and a full holder on a 3 /4 lift holder would be 12"wg, but as it emptied down to 4" wg. District pressures in those days were much lower as cookers/ fire etc could cope with the lower pressures. Modern boiler just wont work with those type of pressure.
The whole gas supply system was stood on it's head with the advent of Natural gas arriving already being at higher pressures and the job was then to reduce the pressure to a manageable one for the district gas mains. Previously compressors were used to allow the use of medium pressure pipes around town and between the towns. For instance Medway still has a medium pressure 18"ring main now largely replaced by PE pipes originally operating at 20 psi (the maximum allowed for cast iron mechanical jointed pipe). Chatham Dockyard had its own 9" steel pipework fed from both Gillingham and Rochester but only at 5 psi.


Thinking about it, if the collapsing telescopic cylinder created pressure in the outlet pipe then it would also need some sort of compressor arrangement to pump it back up again.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on January 02, 2021, 06:44:50 PM
Here is newish picture of the spiral guided holder at Gillingham just after painting.


 
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: stuartwaters on January 02, 2021, 07:13:48 PM
Coal Gas has a very distinctive smell and I remember that as a young child while going to the Strand some years after the conversion to Natural Gas, the place still stank of Coal Gas.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lyn L on January 02, 2021, 08:54:04 PM
Not having a clue about how gas holders work ! just being so used to seeing them in different places. As a young child living in Ramsgate we lived fairly near the Gas works and it always stank of gas. I always thought it was a usual smell of the town   8) .
My eldest son used to work at Grain for Transco later National grid and he has photos of himself inside a gas holder, he said he'd try and find any and let me know. 
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: MartinR on January 02, 2021, 09:08:30 PM
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder in particular the illustration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dip_and_cup.svg shows how the seal was created and maintained as the parts rose and fell.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Dave Smith on January 03, 2021, 01:38:21 PM
For anyone complaining about the constant GtheP thread- not me- the "gas" subject has been very active for some time with lots of interesting articles. So enjoy. And thanks to all those who contributed.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Stewie on January 03, 2021, 05:00:01 PM
I have to say that I have learnt something reading this thread and the associated Wiki links!  :)
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on January 03, 2021, 07:07:15 PM
Good to hear Stewie,


We once had a bomb scare at a site and I arrived to see Police cars inside the boundary of the site. The inspector asked what was needed and I said get those cars our first as if the holder goes up so would the cars and their occupants. He was very quick to get them out. Next the police dogs arrived and they expected to send the dogs up on their own. When I explained the construction of the water grips at each level and that in the darkness the dogs will fall through into the tank, that idea was give up as well.



Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Invicta Alec on January 26, 2021, 03:34:46 PM
I kind of broke a tradition in our family by not following both my father and grandfather into working for the gas board. Three uncles and one great uncle were also employed. All but one worked on the distribution side in Medway. Dad got promoted to be foreman for the Sevenoaks area. Temporarily though my family were shipped to St.Pauls Cray while a house was built for us in Sevenoaks.


In the event we actually spent eighteen months in St.Pauls Cray. We lived in a very large house within the grounds of the holder station. The gas lit house was on its last legs and damp and we were to be its last residents. We largely lived on the upper floor. The house had three lawns, the largest of which had been fenced off at some point and manicured into a bowling green. There was also a tennis court and a club house forming the social club for this particular gas board region. My bedroom overlooked the bowling green and the left hand one of the three holders in the picture below. I'd say it was around seventy yards away.


We moved to a brand new but tiny house in Sevenoaks in 1963. Again the house was actually within the holder station. In the aerial photo below you can see a white car on the road on the right hand side. The house immediately to its left was ours. The holder was no more than thirty five yards away.


So I think I can claim that gasholders loomed large in my early years! Both holder stations no longer exist.


Following the discussion above about the holders being now replaced by a national grid system its odd to reflect back sixty years. In 1960 the Sevenoaks holder station was still an actual gasworks. Even though all its old ancillary buildings had been removed by the time we arrived, there were still stack after stack of new gas mains pipes stored there. The old rails from the nearby Bat & Ball station sidings were not lifted for some years. In the corner of the yard was a tiny office where just one gas board employee worked. I became friendly with one chap. We'd sit and chat about football in the evenings. Once every hour we'd walk over to the holders and he would take a reading or two off of some meter or other and then phone his findings through to head office in Croydon. As far as I could tell it was pretty much the largest part of his job. He did this all through the night and I'd see him cycle home the next morning.


Alec.
Title: Re: Gas Works
Post by: Lutonman on February 28, 2021, 12:41:10 PM
I found this on the BBC website today which may be of general interest to those who follow this thread.


Will the UK's gas holders be missed? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30405066)