The Kent History Forum

Healthcare => Hospitals and Asylums => Topic started by: castle261 on September 09, 2019, 12:32:41 PM

Title: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: castle261 on September 09, 2019, 12:32:41 PM
Has finally, put up the shutters. The developers will move in now, to build what ?
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Smiffy on September 09, 2019, 04:26:04 PM
The latest information I can find implies that it will be turned into (you'll never guess) - flats!


Better re-purposed than being being pulled down I suppose; at least the main structure will remain intact.








Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on September 09, 2019, 05:36:54 PM
In the same way that the chapel (which is the oldest part of the hospital) has been.  Seems a bit odd, martial arts in a Norman church, but at least it keeps it repaired and maintained.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: stuartwaters on September 09, 2019, 09:17:20 PM
My uncle died in there, albeit in the early 1990's, as did a great many other people over the years. Bearing that in mind, would you want to live in a new flat there? I wouldn't.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on September 09, 2019, 09:22:30 PM
Many people with incurable diseases prefer to come home to die.  Pre-NHS they were probably nursed there regardless.  Many houses over 50 years old will have seen a death, and by 100 years it's a racing cert.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: pr1uk on September 10, 2019, 06:20:22 AM
It's the modern way they want people to travel way out of their comfort range to hospitals miles away and hard to get to especially for older people with no transport. This was a great local hospital soon to be flats I have no doubt
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Lutonman on September 27, 2019, 06:59:35 PM
My Dad also died there, having been previously moved from Medway and left to die at Milton Hospital by the doctors, we managed to get him back to Medway. My abiding memory of him was, him smiling and giving us a "thumbs up" bye way of saying tanks I'm home.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: AlanTH on September 28, 2019, 10:10:35 AM
Several members of my family including me got treated there over the years as of course many others did.  I got taken to emergency one day with severe stomach pains and they rushed me in and several of the staff pushed and pulled me in an attempt to straighten me out as I was doubled over with pain.
They were successful but I don't think they were pleased with the result as suddenly I had to relieve myself urgently so out came a bed pan as they wouldn't let me use the toilet, but they soon regretted that. :)
The results were indescribable.
Apparently my bowels had twisted somehow causing a blockage and their herculean efforts to straighten me out had eased the problem so it was all their fault.......
Sad to hear it's gone/going but that seems to be the way now as things become too old to function properly.
AlanTH.
Title: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: smiler on October 16, 2019, 01:02:55 PM
    I noticed the other day a fence going up along the front of the hospital then heard from a friend it's going to be demolished, Has anybody here heard anything about this. Supposedly the oldest hospital in the country built around 1100 I believe.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: smiler on October 16, 2019, 01:18:28 PM
    Sorry just noticed this has previously been reported on perhaps admin can remove it please  :(
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: MartinR on October 16, 2019, 09:52:45 PM
1078, but what's 22 years between friends!  The hospital was the oldest continuously functioning hospital, but the buildings are from the  1863 - 1894 rebuild.  The chapel is original though, dating to between 1115 and 1124.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: Smiffy on October 16, 2019, 10:12:28 PM
MartinR,


Do you know how much of it is actually original, as I believe there was quite a lot of restoration during Victorian times and sometimes they could get a bit carried away.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: MartinR on October 16, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: Smiffy on October 17, 2019, 12:18:39 AM
Yes, I meant just the chapel, I was wondering exactly how much of the original medieval structure is remaining.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital Rochester
Post by: MartinR on October 17, 2019, 10:05:25 AM
The East end is original.  Indeed it may be the earliest surviving example of an apsoidal east end.  The nave is C13, but may contain earlier work obscured by the alterations (for a similar example of burying see Rochester Cathedral).  The N aisle is 19C, as is the porch.  Stained glass is 19thC and 20thC.  There's a write up at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Bartholomew's_Hospital,_Rochester (http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Bartholomew's_Hospital,_Rochester) and the listing is at https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1268238 (http://https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1268238)  The last I heard it was being used by Granite Gym, but their server can't be contacted so that may no longer be the case.
There's an interesting report of the 1982 excavation of the (possible) hall in Archaeologia Cantiana here: https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/98/report-excavation-grounds-st-bartholomews-chapel-chatham (https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/98/report-excavation-grounds-st-bartholomews-chapel-chatham)
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: stuartwaters on October 17, 2019, 09:30:10 PM
I merged the two threads about St. Barts Hospital in Rochester. All the posts about it in the Category 'Civic Buildings' are now in the thread contained in the Hospitals and Asylums Category.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: CAT on October 23, 2019, 09:23:49 PM
Just a couple of pics from my collection all dated to the early 1950's. The first being a general view of the hospital, the second being a glimpse at the children's ward and a third of the operation theatre. May bring back some memories?


MartinR is on dangerous ground when describing the medieval chapel as possibly having the earliest surviving example of an apsidal east end. Think about the early Anglo - Saxon churches of Kent, or any number of early Norman examples that abound also.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on October 23, 2019, 10:46:23 PM
I stand slightly corrected.  The word "Norman" was missing.  "Very few Norman apses remain unaltered and Greenwood suggests that this may be the earliest remaining example in the country".  Greenwood, E.J. (1962), The Hospital of St Bartholomew Rochester, The Author, page 29.

Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Smiffy on October 23, 2019, 10:57:36 PM

I thought I'd post this link for those who haven't seen it. The date says 1929 but it actually dates from the end of 1930.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR5QQa7rDRQ
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on October 23, 2019, 11:37:41 PM
Thank you for that.  Do you know if the paper mill (and associated narrow gauge railway) was Edward Lloyd's Sittingbourne and Kemsley complex?
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Smiffy on October 24, 2019, 12:07:47 AM
If I remember rightly this was discussed on the old forum and confirmed as Lloyds paper mill.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: snodlandmalc on October 24, 2019, 01:55:21 PM
Interesting to see a picture of the children's ward,although it does still send a shiver down my spine ! I was in there about 1958/59.I was only about 4,so don't remember to much detail of it.I recall it as being dark and dingy,so I think it was on a lower level.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: CAT on October 24, 2019, 03:27:33 PM
Always worth airing caution MartinR with the accrediting foundation dates with actual structures, which is a common pitfall from the past. A foundation document does not necessarily relate to the buildings on the site. I include an inferred plan of the hospital chapel and accompanying text by Aymer Valence (a respective church authority of his time), both of which suggest the chapel, with its apsidal east end is of early twelfth-century and not late eleventh-century as a foundation document might imply.

Apart from the larger religious establishments (cathedrals and priories), it is thought that the early church builders following the Norman conquest preferred the square east end. A revival of the eastern apse, unless it was already in place prior to the Norman conquest, appears to have been favoured in the parish church from about c.1100 - 1125. Archbishop Lanfranc (first Norman archbishop) certainly didn't favour the apse in the parish church, all of which can be roughly dated to his term possess square east ends. The curving apse subsequently went out of fashion after c.1150 with numerous 'apses' being removed and squared off, these were subsequently extended in the following years. 
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on October 24, 2019, 06:35:50 PM
If you look back at my post of October 17, 2019, 10:05:25 AM, you'll notice that I emphasised the word "may".  In the official listing English Heritage states:
Quote
apse has a half conical roof with 3 round-arched C11 windows with incised zig-zag decoration, and taller chancel gable
The listing description quotes "London: 1976-: 202; Greenwood EJ: The Hospital of St Bartholomew Rochester: Rochester: 1962-)" as its source.

Turning now to the documents you cited.  Are you certain Aymer Valance is the source?  Elliston-Erwood FSA, Frank Charles: "Plans of, and Brief Architectural Notes on, Kent Churches", Part II in Archaeologica Cantiana, volume xl (1947) p 16 has exactly the same text, not just the words but typographically identical, even to the extent of the slight distortion on line 5.  Page 17 has the illustration you reproduce.  https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/60/plans-and-brief-architectural-notes-kent-churches-part-ii (https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/60/plans-and-brief-architectural-notes-kent-churches-part-ii)
Also in Arch. Cant. is a 1782 plan from Thorpe's Registrum Roffense see https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/98/report-excavation-grounds-st-bartholomews-chapel-chatham. (https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/arch-cant/vol/98/report-excavation-grounds-st-bartholomews-chapel-chatham)
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: CAT on October 25, 2019, 09:16:50 AM
I stand corrected MartinR, you are correct with the reference; I was following something else that Aymer Valence had written and crossed it over by mistake.

Either way, even at the time of F. C. Elliston-Erwood's article on 'The Apse in Kentish Church Architecture' (Arch. Cant. Vol.43, 1931), the remains at St Bart's, Chatham was recognised as being of twelfth-century and not earlier. It seems that the main reasoning for the dating of the St Bart's apse by Greenwood is the zig-zag decoration of one of the window heads, which must be the one in the left of the two late eighteenth-century drawings of the St Bart's apse? If this is the decorated window, with Greenwood's suggestive date, this would lead Historic England to use this a cited dating criteria for the construction of the apse?

Unfortunately, the adjacent excavation failed to clarify the date of the apse further, which means that regional trends, and comparisons have to be relied upon. As I mentioned earlier, the early Norman church buildings were not big on constructing curving apsidal east ends at a parish church level, so opted for the square ends instead. 
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on October 25, 2019, 10:45:01 AM
Actually this is all starting to hang together.  You state: "A revival of the eastern apse, ... appears to have been favoured in the parish church from about c.1100 - 1125.  It is worth bearing in mind that St Bart's chapel was not a parish church, but a private chapel for a hospital.  Greenwood says that the chapel was first built in Gundulf's time and completed by between 1115 and 1124 by Hugh de Trottescliffe after Gundulf.  Note that this is completion, not commencement.  The dating of C11 for the apse by Greenwood indicates a TAQ of 1100.  The Elliston-Erwood (1934) reference is only a single sentence: "A very interesting though much restored example of a mediaeval spital of the twelfth century with its apsidal termination still standing".  Interestingly, the next entry is for Harbledown Hospital where, although subsequently destroyed, there was an apse with a foundation date of 1084.  In summary:Assuming that (1) and (4) are both ridiculously precise we have the following putative narrative:I must emphasize that this narrative is highly speculative and unsourced.  For both hospitals an earlier chapel might have existed, possibly wooden, but the building of the stone chapels has erased any trace thereof.
So to return to Greenwood's speculation that St. Bart's may be the earliest surviving example of a Norman Apse.  I think that with the words "may be" it is a reasonable statement.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: CAT on October 25, 2019, 12:18:20 PM
I can agree with the general assumed timeline you put forward, but you might have to exclude the apse at Harbledown as there is no firm evidence that the earliest constructional phase is directly associated with Lanfranc, though he is noted as being the hospitals founder. As you say, there would almost certainly have been timber structures on the site first with masonry building following, but how far following. Why would Lanfranc instigate the building of a square ended chancel in the earliest phase of St Gregory's Priory, Northgate, Canterbury and with no sign of an apse at St john's Hospital Chapel, Canterbury (though the present chapel is a later reduction and modification of the earlier structure)? I wonder if the apse at Harbledown is post Lanfranc, say Archbishop Anselm? Unfortunately, only limited research, and observations have been undertaken at Harbledown to be able to clarify this point further.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on October 25, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
I've edited my previous to emphasis that the first two steps relate to the founding of the hospitals, not the chapels.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Smiffy on October 25, 2019, 05:55:36 PM
Interesting to compare the drawings with this map from the 1860's. As you can see the chapel was almost completely surrounded by other buildings, the main access being via Chapel lane and the Chapel steps in the High street.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: dingo4638 on July 27, 2020, 10:12:15 AM
The Victory pub stood to the left of the chapel steps on the High Street. This is one of Edwin Harris' rather naive drawings.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: CAT on July 27, 2020, 01:40:20 PM
Naive, but still very informative. Sometimes these simple drawings can be the only surviving view of a building, or street scene, to survive if no such comparable 19th - early twentieth century photographic view of professional engraving is available.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Smiffy on July 27, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
I have one of the Railway saloon which I believe is his as well. Also very naive but as you say there may be no other visual record of many of these places.

As an aside, the building on the other side of the steps - William Edmead's - is listed as an Orange Merchant.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Natasha Steer on March 09, 2021, 12:00:44 PM
Hi everyone! I have been working with George from Future Chatham about St Bartholomew's Hospital as part of a High Street Heritage Action Zone micro grant we were awarded. We spent sometime collecting stories about the hospital and speaking to Medway residents about their experiences of living and working there. You can see our videos that we recorded here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIWSGc3yAVqsRRO8hUgSkjw (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIWSGc3yAVqsRRO8hUgSkjw) We realise not all our facts are spot on as we are learning as we go. We have found Greenwoods and Dr Stratton's notes very useful! We would like to collect as much info as we can for Medway Archives. Please if you have photos or stories that you are willing to share for Medway Archives please let me know as we want to make sure the history of the hospital is not lost with the redevelopment into luxury flats. You can see more about the redevelopment here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uBsyCLXs0ufboPn3W41rUyDcEV2KgGgA/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uBsyCLXs0ufboPn3W41rUyDcEV2KgGgA/view?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Dave Smith on March 11, 2021, 11:02:01 AM
Hi Natasha. I was always under the impression that St. Bart's was in Chatham but I notice in their brochure that the developers refer to it as Rochester- a more prestigious address? However, in the small print it says, on the border of Rochester; very subtle! Sorry that I don't have any stories but my Grandfather, a lifelong Royal Engineer- ex Crewe Works, Engine Apprentice, was admitted there when it was the Medway Workhouse in 1931, although it then became the Asylum. Later he was transferred to Barming Hospital in Maidstone, ( built as an asylum, hence the name) where he died in 1937; cause of death, nowadays it would be called Parkinson's. So, like so many inmates of Asylums in the past, you didn't have to be a lunatic as such. Incidentally, you mention that this is part of the High Street Heritage project. My father was an apprentice Fitter & Turner to a firm of Artesian Well Borers in the High Street at the beginning of the 20th Century.   
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: MartinR on March 11, 2021, 11:16:14 AM
According to the sign in the High Street (at 51.3831691 N 0.517087 E) the boundary passed to the east of St. Bart's chapel.  The Orchard Garden restaurant is number 2 High Street, so the numbering restarts there.
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: castle261 on February 03, 2023, 02:07:35 AM
I was a patient in 1944 in Gundulf Ward - I was walking home after a day of work - in pain - The next I remember I woke up in St Barts.
I had burst appendix - I was kept in the ward for about six weeks. I left Hospital - with a rubber tube sticking out of my stomach - held
there - by a safety pin - to drain the fluid.
In those days - to main enterance was in the High Street at Hospital Lane - for Out Patients & Ambulances.

The other time I was visiting my lady friend - in one of the smaller wards - for 4 beds - when on leaving the main enterance in New Road
I caught my foot on a metal surround for a Main gas / Hydrant - & tripped - There were two nurses having a break at the bus stop - they
came to my aid - then an ambulance arrived - to take me to Medway Hospital (you would have thought a ward in St Bart - would suffice)
Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: Jackie Paper on July 05, 2023, 04:17:00 PM
While still a hospital, St Barts was used as a location for scenes in a short film by Kent-born and obsessed comedy writer/actor/dreamweaver Matt Holness.

It's called 'A Gun for George' (2011) and can be found on YouTube to view for free. (Dark/disturbing humour warning)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq0xt_gbVH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq0xt_gbVH0)

Title: Re: St Barts Hospital. Rochester.
Post by: castle261 on October 08, 2023, 04:52:30 PM
To people all over the world - St. Barts Hospital at Rochester`s - does not function as a hospital now - It has been turned into flats.
The whole structure of the hospital - and nurses quarters. Its kept it`s profile thou !
.













 .