The Kent History Forum

Industry => Miscellaneous Industrial History => Topic started by: johnfilmer on December 31, 2019, 01:40:18 PM

Title: Measurements old and new
Post by: johnfilmer on December 31, 2019, 01:40:18 PM
Those of us of a certain age were brought up using Imperial measurements and pound shillings and pence. This causes conversion problems, a typical example being one of my service engineers, who when asked how long he wanted an item replied, About 2metres, give or take an inch.


Moving between machinery calibrated one in Imperial, and the other metric is another joy for the unwary.


Even working on cars in the late sixties meant whitworth/BSF, BA, A/F and metric fasteners. Some spanners are interchangeable, but only with the right sized hammer :D
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on December 31, 2019, 02:38:09 PM
If you are bringing a yacht alongside, the helm often cannot see the how close the pontoon is to the hull.  Typically those waiting to step (never jump) ashore call off the distance.  If a European is calling off you'll typically hear "2 metres", "1 metre", "half a metre".  These are approximate, so when a Brit is calling off "2 yards", "1 yard" it isn't a problem, assume a yard is a metre.  But when the call goes on to "2 foot", "1 foot" the helm's face can be a picture!  :)
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Invicta Alec on December 31, 2019, 03:37:43 PM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: johnfilmer on December 31, 2019, 04:54:12 PM
Although I have enjoyed the ease of metric calculation, especially once I got my hands on an electronic calculator, I do find that there is sometimes a perception issue as some metric units are so much larger than their imperial equivalent.


Doing the technical end of domestic heating, I found it preferable to calculate heat losses in btu/hr (British thermal units per hour) rather than kW/hr (kilowatts per hour) as there are 3412 btu to a kW. It makes radiator sizing easier in my opinion.


Atmospheric pressure is 1bar, but 14.7psi again makes small variations more obvious.


I use 10lbs per gallon of water as my rule of thumb, but then I was born in 1951....
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on December 31, 2019, 05:16:38 PM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Invicta Alec on December 31, 2019, 07:54:19 PM

Now today's question: if a barrel of wort weighs 18 lb what will be the strength of the finished beer? :)


Probably going to regret this Martin, but do enlighten us please  :)


Alec.

Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: shoot999 on December 31, 2019, 08:23:17 PM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: DaveTheTrain on December 31, 2019, 08:48:13 PM
I still find an acre easier to visualise than a hectare, in spite of the hectare being more logical.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on December 31, 2019, 10:48:51 PM
@Alec (and anyone else interested)
18lb refers to brewer's pounds which is the weight by which a barrel (36 gallons) of wort exceeds that of pure water.  18lb is therefore an original gravity of (360+18)/360 = 1.050.  This density (commonly written as 1050) equates to about 5.1% alcohol if fully fermented out.  I'm sure you are now rolling your eyes and muttering about "cumbersome" not even half describing it.
To matters both more fun and more serious:  best wishes to all for a happy, healthy and prosperous new year.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Invicta Alec on January 01, 2020, 12:09:37 PM
@MartinR,


As cumbersome as our old units were, they deserve their place in history. I thank you for introducing me to "brewer's pounds" which I'd never heard of. Your explanation of how the fermentation numbers are arrived at must be preserved. The Kent History Forum is as good a place as any to do it!


A happy new year to you too Martin.


Alec.


P.S. Do recheck your maths on the little problem I set a day or two ago. By my reckoning your answer is roughly two (old pennies) adrift.  :)

Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: castle261 on January 01, 2020, 01:30:36 PM
For an old timer - it is still strange - using the new measurments - At one time it always pound,
shillings & pence - Which is better - to me - the old pounds shillings & pence.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on January 01, 2020, 04:20:03 PM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: smiler on January 01, 2020, 05:49:56 PM
   I'm always converting back to old money,when I pay 75p for a paper and think 15 bob. I only used to get twelve and a tanner (62 1/2p) for a morning and an evening round put together for my 1958 paper rounds,
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Invicta Alec on January 01, 2020, 10:21:07 PM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: AlanTH on January 02, 2020, 09:41:52 AM
Probably totally irrelevant to the discussion but I was taxi driver (Vokes Taxis, Wimbles etc) about the time decimalisation of our currency was introduced.
Very easy to pick up and brought the UK into line with just about all those we dealt with. But for us who dealt with cash on a daily basis it sounded the death knell to a nice little perk (read rip off) of foreign sailors or tourists like Yanks who came into the Medway Towns.
If the fare was less than 10 bob and most times it was back in the 60s, the driver (meaning me) only every gave change up to 10 shillings if they offered a pound note for the ride.
Just a quick count into their hot little hands of the change and that was it. They never sussed they were being ripped off. :) Nice little tip of 10 bob every time. :)
The only ones you couldn't do it to were Aussies (the lot I've lived with for nearly 50 years) as they had our currency of pounds shillings and pence!
AlanTH.

PS. Of course I'd never do such a thing these days......
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: stuartwaters on January 02, 2020, 08:14:36 PM
I was in primary school when the changeover from Imperial to Metric units occurred. As I recall, we spent one term learning pounds and ounces, pints and quarts, the next it was all kilos, grams and litres.


As an aside, on the subject of short measures, one of the causes of the Great Mutiny in 1797, when the fleets at Spithead and the Nore went on strike, was the 'Pursers Pound', used to measure out the men's provisions. This was 14 ounces rather than 16 and the abolition of the Pursers Pound was one of the Mutineers demands.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Smiffy on January 02, 2020, 11:33:33 PM
Never heard of the Pursers Pound - do you know what the origin of this was? I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a way of reducing expenditure.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: stuartwaters on January 03, 2020, 06:30:01 AM
Never heard of the Pursers Pound - do you know what the origin of this was? I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a way of reducing expenditure.


That's exactly what it was Smiffy, which is why the striking seamen were demanding it's abolition.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on January 03, 2020, 08:36:38 AM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: KeithG on January 10, 2020, 04:04:23 PM
Having left school in 1963 and started my apprenticeship as a Carpenter & Joiner at 16yrs i was soon around 1965/66 using Metric with Imperial measurements.


We were always told "do not convert or mix the two but work with one or the other".......i found the transition very easy if those rules were carried out.


The trouble in this country is we used the Metric system in millimetres when in fact although the system is Metres it is Centimeters that is used on the Continent.


By using it in the correct way long calculations are easier as the result or workings is already x10 less to be written down because of the decimal point.....
eg: 2440mm = simply 2.44cm


I believe the reason people convert is because they do not have any idea how much 300mm looks like but if you said 12" then they have a better idea?


It is the same for Centigrade and Fahrenheit people do not know what 10 degrees C feels like but they do 50 F.....of course now that these Metric systems have been used for so many years they have been used more that the Imperial measurements so one learns.


However there are still some leftovers from the Imperial times of measurements and that is when purchasing mainly wooden sheet materials like Hardboard or Chipboard/MDF etc.
The reason the sizes are odd like 2440mm x 1220mm is because all the older machinery for producing these items were was Imperial and so therefore 8 feet x 4 feet is the size and still now machines are produced for this size.


However i do remember when i had a bad car accident in 1969 to help get myself back on my feet and working i was a barman at a pub just on the corner of our road and when first starting to try and add up 1s 10p and 2s 11p etc for rounds of drinks was difficult for me as paper and pencil i could do anything maths wise but not mental arithmetic.
The landlady saw i was in difficulties and said "you should add it up while you are pouring the beer out from the pump" which did give a longer time especially Guiness ?
When decimalization came in i found it a doddle....



Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on January 10, 2020, 04:47:28 PM
As virtually always, things are not quite that simple.  The metric system was rationalised by British Association for the Advancement of Science based on c.g.s (centimetre, gram and second) units in 1874.  The Italians produced another rationalised system based on MKS (metre, Kilogram and second) in 1901.  Both systems were in use until 1960 when the International Committee for Wieghts and Measures (CIPM after the French translation) developed the International System (SI, French again) out of the MKS.  To bring things up to date, the International System of Quantities (ISQ) is based on the SI system and is defined in ISO 80000.
On the continent they have long been used to the cgs system and don't see why they should change to new-fangled units, and so retain the use of the centimetre. In the UK we are transitioning to ISQ approved SI, and so we eschew the cm as old-fashioned and non-standard.
You're quite right about familiarity.  There are plenty of other instances of established standard being forced into metric, or else simple accepted.

Two small points.  (1) A small typo: 2440mm = 244cm = 2.44m. ;)   (2) The standard abbreviation for an old penny was "d", not "p", so your prices should have been 1s 10d and 2s 11d, or as more commonly written 1/10 and 2/11.  I too learnt to do my arithmetic whilst the beer flowed.  If you were having problems you just pulled the handle more slowly!
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: KeithG on January 10, 2020, 07:11:53 PM
Forgot to say an easy way to remember what a Metre is in Imperial is that is all the "f's".....
free foot free and free eighths.


This the builders way and not for the holier than thou?
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: DaveTheTrain on January 10, 2020, 09:32:11 PM
I was in primary school when the changeover from Imperial to Metric units occurred. As I recall, we spent one term learning pounds and ounces, pints and quarts, the next it was all kilos, grams and litres



You must be a similar age to me Stuart, I am 53.  I always say that I was taught neither imperial weights or metric weights as the teachers were not allowed to teach the old stuff and did not really understand or have the resources to teach the new.  As a consequence I don't understand pounds and stone one iota and have only the vaguest notion of kilos and grams... and I am an engineer!
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on January 10, 2020, 10:54:33 PM
DTT, I suspect you may be a bit younger.  I was taught imperial units and how to do long multiplication/division on them in AY 1966/7.  My brother who was 2 years behind me was taught metric.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: pr1uk on January 16, 2020, 07:20:01 AM
I always work in feet and inches and really only understand fahrenheit, sad I know to some but that's me
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Smiffy on January 16, 2020, 01:33:11 PM
I know what you mean, pr1uk. The old imperial units - although not as practical, feel to me more relatably "human" and not as coldly scientific.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Dave Smith on February 16, 2020, 05:56:28 PM
I've only just come across this thread & have read it with interest. I was born in 1930, so have only ever used Imperial; although towards the end of my working life, metric- or SI- was very much in vogue. I felt sorry for those who started metric at the change over for so much was - & still is, eg mph- in Imperial. Dave TT; yes, acre, they built houses then at 10 to the acre which put it into perspective. JohnF; I always used Btu's, & it was so easy to check out 3Btu's /ft3 to give a good indication of room heat loss. MartinR; afraid you are x60 out with the latitude. 1nm is 1minute of arc, not 1 degree. I nm is approx. 1.15 miles or 1 mile is approx. .9 of a mn.  In kms, " gawd knows"!
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Nemo on February 16, 2020, 07:33:25 PM
I also grew up in "Imperial" days but, when you think about it, wasn't it strange, before and after the change, that OO gauge modelling (1:76) was always a mixture, being 4mm to 1 foot.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on February 16, 2020, 09:34:14 PM
@Dave: Well caught (from last year), two mistakes in one post, must be going senile.  It's just as well that I didn't make that mistake doing my Yachtmaster/Coastal exam last autumn.  :-[
BTW, 1 nm is 1.85 km, so near enough 2 unless you are doing serious navigation in metric (and if so - why?).
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Dave Smith on February 17, 2020, 12:26:31 PM
Nemo. Of course the continentals used HO, same track size but slightly different rolling stock. For my son- in my youth, I had O gauge- we bought  2nd hand TT, which I thought was by far the best, as small enough for a decent layout but not silly small like Z.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Smiffy on February 17, 2020, 07:51:56 PM
There's even a "T" gauge now which is less than half the size of "Z" gauge!
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Nemo on February 17, 2020, 09:04:07 PM
I had TT, 3mm to the foot, or 1/100. Shame the 12mm track only represented 4 feet, you just had to remember not to look at trains head-on.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Dave Smith on February 18, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Smiffy. Good lord! I remember talking with a chap with an Z gauge layout in a small suitcase; he said the problem was keeping dust off the rails for the slightest bit stopped the engine. p.s. I should have said N gauge as the next one down before Z, sorry.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Dave Smith on February 18, 2020, 03:05:49 PM
As this thread was getting very Model Railways orientated, I've started another under that heading for it seemed there were many who knew a lot about the subject & might make the thread very interesting.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: MartinR on February 18, 2020, 07:17:09 PM
Interesting case of abusing the old measurements.  Aldi are selling packs of "quarter pounder" burgers.  Each burger is 73g.  A quarter pound in 113g!  More than a little naughty.
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Smiffy on February 18, 2020, 08:01:15 PM
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: smiler on February 19, 2020, 06:55:42 AM
I like that Smiffy very witty       
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Colin walsh on March 07, 2020, 06:29:57 AM
Hi,mostly light hearted problems created by decimilation ,but in at least one instance change of systems had a some what different effect .
I refer to the change in ionizing radiation regulations as used in the nuclear industry.the original dose rate was based on the REM -radiation dose equivalent  man,a whole new ball game compared to CIVERTS. SYSTEM ,
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Bill Jones on August 13, 2020, 12:43:06 PM
Thank you, have a banana  :)
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: grandarog on August 13, 2020, 05:39:33 PM
In the deep South of USA (think "Gone with the Wind") the early new rich  plantation owners wanted opulent grand houses.
If you ever visit  you will find the Doors and Windows are huge and the ceilings very high,.
This was caused by the builders being given continental plans . All measurements were in centimetres which the American builders thought were inches ,hence the large scale buildings. A few were built before it was realised. :)
Title: Re: Measurements old and new
Post by: Dave Smith on August 17, 2020, 06:04:44 PM
grandarog. Yes, I have visited some in New Orleans & they are pretty tall. I assumed it was to keep them cooler in the Summer- from your post, obviously not. Of course we have the much more modern farce of the space shuttle made with Imperial & using some parts made in metric. Beyond comprehension!