Man of Kent / Kentish men

[MartinR]

As they say in my home city:
Call me owt you like - just don't call me late for dinner.
Having lived in Kent for 40-odd of my 66 years I still think of myself as a Yorkshireman.

[Bill Jones]

I still think that i should be qualified to call myself a Kentish man as I have now lived here for a while!!! 

[Cosmo Smallpiece]

Not forgetting that the "Britons" in Kent at the time of the Roman invasion were the Cantii tribe, who were themselves actually Belgic!

[MartinR]

I used the term "English" to refer to the Angles (Southern Denmark/Northern Germany), Saxons (Saxony, North Germany) and Jutes (Jutland, Denmark) in contradistinction to the native Britons.  I would suggest that it is not an uncommon usage, see for instance Sir Frank Stenton's "The English Settlements" (Oxford History of England) which covers exactly this period.

[Invicta Alec]

History is indeed a fascinating subject Stewie!


Although I'm fiercely proud to be a Man of Kent, I'm often amused by the Invicta motto meaning "unconquered".
In honesty a huge percentage of every marauding toe rag that's ever come across the waters to batter the inhabitants of these islands have come by way of Kent. Be they Saxons, Jutes, Norsemen, Vikings, Romans, Danes et al, they've all poked their unwanted noses in!


Far from being "unconquered" we've taken a bit of a hiding .......... until 1940 that is! 


Alec.

[Stewie]

Hengist & Horsa were Jutish war band leaders brought in by the British King of Kent (Vortigern?), to act as mercenaries against the Saxon raiders. Thanet was allocated to them to settle in. As with most settlers, it did not take long before they looked with envious eyes at other territory in Kent and decided to take over.
Interesting that you call the incoming settlers 'English' as they were probably what we would now call Danes. I have had some interesting conversations as to what is 'Englishness'.
The term England originates from 'Angleland' i.e. the land of the Angles but these were Saxon or Germanic settlers. After the Saxons hade established themselves and taken over from the 'British' Celts, the Viking, Norse & Danish settlers come to England and in turn integrate with the Saxon population. The English shield wall on Senlac Ridge at Hastings would have been a mixture of descendants from all these earlier settlers, even King Harold was half Danish.
Post 1066 and now the Normans take over, these are Danes that had settled in Northern France and adjusted to French customs and yet by the time of Richard 1st these are also now 'English'.
History is a fascinating subject.

[MartinR]

As a more serious follow-up to my last (rather tongue-in-cheek) post, I have heard that the "Invicta" motto goes back to Hengist & Horsa's time.  Famously they are reputed to have been given as much land as an ox-hide would cover, but cut the said hide into very thin strips and enclosed Thanet.  The island was therefore not conquered, but taken by the English by guile from the British.  No reliable sources, just what I was told 30-odd years ago when I came south.  As a sop to the offended, here is a link to a 15thC map of Thanet: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Mappa_Thaneti_Insule.jpg  Note that North is to the left.

[MartinR]

Shh Bill.  As a Yorkshireman I may concur, but when in Rome ...
BTW, I suspect that each county regards its flag as striking and unique:

[Bill Jones]

Having read that and trying not to offend any one it seems strange that Kent men were proud of not being conquered (Invicta!) but the truth is they cowardly gave in to the William without a fight. I have seen and read of Norman castles and things here so it seems that the Kent men ended up the same as every one else in the whole Country.


I do like the Kent badge, the sign of my new County. It has the proud white horse of HORSA that is so striking, much more striking then other counties badges!

[Stewie]

The white horse belonged to either Hengist or Horsa (I can never remember which!).


The Kentish motto Invicta meaning "Undefeated or unconquered" was bestowed on the people of our county by William the Conqueror I believe.


Alec.



I have always wondered about this item of history. Following on from his decisive victory at Hastings, William I circled London laying waste to all in his path before being crowned King of England in Westminster Abbey. The story goes that the 'Men of Kent' confronted William and his army and wishing to avoid a conflict the Kent folk were allowed to maintain their Saxon laws and customs in exchange for allowing William free access to Dover.
On his succession to the English Crown, William was keen to integrate into what was a well regulated kingdom but he also had to reward the knights and lords that had fought for him at Hastings with parcels of land. He did this by initially confiscating the land of any Saxon thegn and earldomen  that had fought against him at Hastings and although many of these had perished in the battle this led to a great number of disinherited (and rebellious) elder sons.
Kent was I believe part of the Godwinson empire and specifically King Harold owned much property here. So presumably many of the leading landholders in Kent would have been at Hastings and therefore would forfeit their land, indeed William's half brother Bishop Odo seemed to gain a lot of territory in the subsequent share out and land grab.
So if William did grant the 'Men of Kent' their existing rights and customs and the term 'Invictus', presumably this was a temporary arrangement to buy them off before he was crowned and he was able to exert his will and put in place new Barons and landowners ruling from their new fangled castle power bases.
I wonder therefore, exactly what rights and customs the Saxon population did in fact enjoy under their new ruling class?

[Lyn L]

Thankyou Dave he is my Gt Grandson , will be lovely to meet him soon x

[Dave Smith]

Lyn. Congrat's Gran.   Alec. Many thanks, maybe Bill can clarify which of the H's it was?   Stuart. And many thanks from me as well for all your efforts to keep the Forum up and running.  Do hope you had a good holiday. 

[Invicta Alec]

 Incidently, what IS the origin of the Invicta please?

The white horse belonged to either Hengist or Horsa (I can never remember which!).


The Kentish motto Invicta meaning "Undefeated or unconquered" was bestowed on the people of our county by William the Conqueror I believe.


Alec.

[Lyn L]

The brand new Man of Kent  was born by emergency C section this morning. Mum and baby doing well . x

[Dave Smith]

Bill.As you've apologised, fair enough. You can be a Man of Kent! ( as long as you are not on the London side of Maidstone?). Incidently, what IS the origin of the Invicta please? (Often asides of blogs- a bit off topic maybe- are most interesting.)